![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
It’s been quite a while since we’ve last done this, but that’s exactly why I started them during the episode hiatus! Now, with the series ended and ![[info]](https://stat.livejournal.com/img/community.gif){kind=small}
redial_the_gate not yet starting, it seems like the perfect time for another installment.
Welcome back to Canon vs. Fanon. And welcome, too, to the newcomers to my flist. Drop a comment and say hello! Or don’t, as it pleases you. :)
Recap: Canon is anything shown onscreen in the movie or show; show supersedes movie, when necessary. (The Goa’uld use the genetically-modified Jaffa as soldiers, not ordinary humans dressed in funky armor.) Fanon is defined as popular concepts that occur regularly in fanfic, but have little or no actual canon basis to defend them.
This is a first for me: a Jack O’Neill edition! No, I am not finished with Daniel, I assure you all. But for a nice change of pace, let’s look at some of the more common fanon tropes for Colonel Jack O’Neill. As always, pointers to what I've missed, and discussions and/or disagreements with my analyses, are more than welcome.
Jack constantly snipes about the abundance of trees on the planets they visit through the Stargate.
It is certainly true that nearly all the planets the SGC visited through the Stargate fell into one of two categories: forested or desert. Many fanfic writers seem to consider a Jack remark about trees to be an integral part of a Stargate story, as if it’s something on their mental checklist: story must include Jaffa shooting and missing everything in sight, a reference to Oz, an exchange of “Jack,” “Daniel,” and a gripe about trees. Surprisingly enough, though, remarks about trees in canon are actually very uncommon – not only from Jack, but from anyone at all.
Our first tree observation takes place in First Commandment – the seventh canon planet through the Stargate, although we can easily theorize there were other missions that we didn’t actually see. (Abydos, Chulak, PX-575, P3X-595 [where Sam “drank that stuff that made you take off your-”], Simarka, P3X-797 [aka The Land of Light], and P3X-513, the planet of this episode.)
Sam observes, “Apparently Abydos was the exception, not the rule, as far as trees are concerned."
Daniel points out, "Well, that makes sense. For a planet to support human life, there must be some sort of carbon-based vegetation, right?"
Teal’c explains to them both, "It is no accident. Many Stargate worlds were terra-formed by the Goa'uld, centuries ago."
[Please note the charm of early SG-1 episodes in that statement of Teal’c’s: a time-frame of centuries rather than the more reasonable millennia, and the use of an Earth-centric term such as “terra-formed.” Give them time; they’ll settle down, eventually. :) ]
At this point, Jack interrupts the conversation and directs them to take a quick look around the Gate before they start hunting for the missing team.
The next mention of trees takes place in the following season, at the very beginning of Prisoners.
Jack orders the team to return to Earth, and Daniel protests, “We practically just got here! We have no idea what this planet has to offer.”
Jack suggests, with a heavy dose of sarcasm, “Trees and moss?”
Daniel tries to argue further, and Sam diplomatically tries to support him, but Jack interrupts them and says, “Much as I love a good rain forest…” Then the Taldor’s fugitive shows up, and SG-1 finds themselves booked on a one-way trip to Hadante.
In Need, the very next episode, Shyla takes Daniel on what she clearly perceives to be a romantic walk in the woods. She says, “I know you must have seen much in your travels, but surely you've never seen anything quite so beautiful. We call them ‘trees.’”
A very uncomfortable Daniel says, “Oh. Um, so do we.”
Shyla, surprised, asks, “So you've seen them before, on other worlds? “
“Yes, I have.”
Fast-forward another season, to Demons. As the team exits the Stargate, Jack declaims, “Ah, trees, trees and more trees. What a wonderfully green universe we live in, eh? Where's that village?”
On to Season Four, and Prodigy. Sam takes Haley to M4C-862. Haley looks around and comments, “Doesn’t look that different from home.”
Sam explains, “Well, where there's oxygen, there's usually plant life, trees, water…”
Next comes Scorched Earth in Season Five. Daniel takes Lotan down to the surface of the planet, to show him what is being destroyed.
Lotan studies the surroundings and makes a brilliant observation: “These are trees.”
Daniel quirks a smile and says, “Yes. Anywhere there’s oxygen, you’re sure to find trees. They’re kinda like nature’s air filters.”
From there, we need to jump another season, to Paradise Lost.
Maybourne tells Jack, “I’m tired of running, Jack. Why should I, when I could have a chance of retiring in paradise?”
Jack answers dryly, “I see trees, Harry. You get that in Colorado.”
Then there’s the seriously entertaining exchange in Heroes, when SG-13 gets all the teamy goodness and camaraderie instead of SG-1:
Colonel Dixon observes that the planet seems to be deserted. Balinsky holds up a small notebook and asks cheerfully, “Take the usual bet on that, sir?”
Dixon says, “Sure. Wells?”
Airman Wells offers, “Abandoned naquadah mine.”
“Boring,” Dixon says dismissively, “but good odds. Bosworth?”
Bosworth, completely deadpan, says, “I’m going to put my money on trees, sir.”
Dixon looks at him and announces, “Bosworth’s disqualified for being a smartass.”
To sum up: references to trees on planets occur eight times over seven seasons of the series. Three of them (or possibly four, depending on how you define Daniel's exchange with Shyla in Need) are simply observations, not sarcastic grumblings. Of those eight incidents, four take place when Jack isn’t present, and one takes place with Jack ignoring the conversation, and even cutting it short. That leaves three times when Jack snarks about trees: Prisoners in S2, Demons in S3, and Paradise Lost in S6.
The one in Demons is clearly the template from which fanon is taken, and we can technically say that yes, canon does give us a basis for Jack grousing about trees on other planets. But three times over a five-year period cannot possibly be considered something constant, any more than we can say that Jack’s six uses of the name “Danny” over a three-year period make it canon for Jack to call Daniel by that nickname on a regular basis.
Conclusion: While many planets in Vancouver have their fair share of trees, and Jack does grouse about them, this actually happened very, very rarely. Writers should keep that in mind when they choose to include references to comments about trees in their stories – or maybe even have someone else do the snarking.
Jack is 2IC of the SGC.
There is no question that the members of the SGC, both civilian and military, are accorded all due respect by the SGC staff, and that their advice and suggestions carry a great deal of weight. Consider Sam in Message in a Bottle and A Matter of Time, for example, when her recommendations to Hammond are accepted and followed; or look at Daniel, who is apparently directing the search for Jack and Sam in Solitudes, gives orders to Walter in New Order, and is in charge of interrogations in Endgame. Teal’c, with his status as an alien, might be a little more ambiguous; but certainly he is obeyed in all matters of strategy and defense, as we see from the actions of the SFs in Avatar (which were surely extrapolated from how SFs would act in “real life”), and Hammond deferred to his knowledge and experience with the Goa’uld on a regular basis.
Jack has the authority of his rank – he seems to be the most senior colonel among the SG teams – and his position as leader of the front-line team, as well as his expertise as the man with the most experience through the Stargate. He has the admiration of many of their allies, with Thor (obviously) as head of the Jack O’Neill fan club, but by no means the only member. (Consider Charlie-Reetou’s “mother” and the Enkarens, to name a few.) His suggestions are often interpreted as orders, and his orders are instantly obeyed.
That is not, however, the same thing as being second-in-command of the SGC. Jack’s position as 2IC is such a common part of fanon that no one even seems to think about it; but for two very good reasons, it’s actually impossible.
Let’s take the in-canon reason first: There is no canon proof for this common fanon assertion. We have never seen Jack temporarily in charge when Hammond leaves, for instance; and when General Bauer took over in Chain Reaction, he treated Jack like a regular, not-very-important subordinate, not like the 2IC of the entire base. (The scene when Bauer first appears, and Jack calls everyone present to attention, doesn’t mean he’s in charge of the base; it means he’s the ranking officer in that room, which was quite possibly composed of SG teams only.) Jack’s authority at the SGC is due to him because of his rank and status as CO of SG-1, but that doesn’t automatically make him 2IC of the entire base. The limitations of a television series might not allow us to see anyone other than Jack or Hammond in positions of authority, but there is never any suggestion that Jack is Hammond’s second-in-command.
ETA: Thanks to ![[info]](https://stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small}
ivorygates for suggesting A Matter of Time as a possible canonical reference!
With the Stargate linked to another a planet under the influence of a black hole, time dilations are taking place at the SGC. Hammond tries to get in touch with the President, but the red phone isn't working. Lt. Simmons reports that they've lost all communications on the lower levels; in Hammond wants to get to a secure line, the closest one is up on NORAD, on the main level.
Hammond turns to Jack and says, "I won't be long. In the meantime, Colonel..."
Jack replies, "Understood, sir."
A person could take this exchange to mean that Hammond is telling Jack, as his 2IC, that he is now in charge of the base. However, I would personally suggest that Hammond is actually instructing Jack to keep doing exactly what he's already doing - that is, supervise his junior officer, Captain Carter, as she and her team try to disengage the Stargate. Throughout the following scenes, Jack does nothing to indicate that he's concentrating on anything other than the immediate problem of breaking the Stargate's connection; he doesn't go to Hammond's office, or receive reports from other sectors of the SGC, or anything else at all. So I would conclude that A Matter of Time doesn't support the "Jack as 2IC" fanon, either.
So much for the in-canon contradiction. Now we come to the more interesting argument: that of reality in the Air Force.
I can’t even begin to take credit for the following analysis. It is the work of Codger, a regular contributer to the Television Without Pity’s Stargate: SG-1 forum. It is referenced and linked here with permission, with the help of ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif){kind=small}
aurora_novarum. Thanks, Codger. :)
Essentially, there is no way that Jack, together with his duties as commanding officer of SG-1, could also be second-in-command of the SGC. His rank is too low; he isn’t available when he would need to be; and there are entire layers of chains of command between Hammond and Jack.
Realistically speaking, there has got to be at least one alternate commander of the SGC; after all, Hammond can’t possibly be there 24/7. We’ve seen him at all hours, of course; but in practical terms, there would need to be four separate shifts of officers running the SGC. And with Jack going through the Stargate half the time, how can fanfic writers even try to suggest that he’s next in line for responsibility for the entire base?
If you consider it further, command involving hundreds – or possibly thousands – of people couldn’t possibly be run by Hammond alone. There would need to be officers in charge of maintaining the base, supplying ordnance and medical necessities, security, the commissary, mental health (not just what we see represented by Mackenzie, but an entire network including chaplains, family support during crises, emotional support during recovery, etc.)… The list goes on and on, and many of the officers performing these duties obviously outrank Colonel Jack O’Neill.
There are also those layers: as Codger puts it, there’s the Commander (Hammond), the Vice-Commander (the 2IC), the Operation Groups Commander, (someone who oversees the teams and runs mission support), and the Reconnaissance Squadron Commander – who would be Jack. That means there would be at least two officers between Jack and Hammond in the chain of command.
Codger also includes the other layers of command, including medical, security, supply, analysis, and so on; but those run more or less parallel to the links between Jack and Hammond, so I haven’t included them here. For a more detailed explanation, you can take a look at Codger’s original post. And if I haven’t explained it accurately, the fault is entirely mine.
Conclusion: The fanon suggestion that Jack is 2IC of the SGC is contradicted both by the complete absence of any evidence in canon and the normal chain of command on a military base.
Jack is a practical joker who loves to play pranks on the Marines, other SG team members, and Daniel (especially Daniel).
I’ve read stories entirely devoted to an escalating prank war between Jack and Daniel, or fics that reference Jack gleefully playing practical jokes on SG-3 despite the promises of mortal revenge. Many of them have been highly entertaining, and they certainly seem to be in character. So it might come as a surprise to discover that there is no canon incident whatsoever in which Jack actually plays a practical joke in the SGC. Heavy sarcasm and mockery, yes. Pranks, no.
Does it fit Jack’s character to make him a practical joker? Quite possibly, although I would maintain that Jack is too professional to play such jokes on SGC grounds. But while Jack the Joker doesn’t actually contradict his behavior in canon, there is no actual evidence of it at all.
The closest incidents we ever get to a practical joke take place in Seasons Four and Five, respectively:
Window of Opportunity. Jack walks through the hall and starts to look at his watch just as he hears a call of, “Jack!” He gestures with disappointment at his failure to time Daniel’s interruption properly, then turns to look at Daniel, who comes running up with an armful of papers. They only have time to exchange a few sentences before Daniel is knocked down by Siler, and all the papers go flying.
“Shoulda seen that coming,” Jack mentions.
On the next loop, Jack’s timing is a little better; he’s already counting down on his fingers, and he gives a smirk of pleasure as Daniel’s call of, “Jack!” occurs right when he expects it. And while he interrupts Daniel to point to the sheaf of papers and identify it as “four hundred pages of alien text,” he doesn’t bother to stop the collision with Siler. This time, his comment is, “Oops.”
[The original script actually had Jack move Daniel out of the way, so that Siler didn’t crash into him; unfortunately, the airman walking next to Siler (PDL in his one of his semi-regular cameos) knocked Daniel over instead. I personally would have found that a lot funnier, but that’s not how it was filmed.]
Since Jack was timing it the first time we see it, it’s obvious that it happened at least once before. That makes it a minimum of three times that Jack allowed Daniel to be knocked down before he finally pre-empted the incident by going to Daniel’s office first.
Proving Ground. Daniel is enjoying the comfortable feel of Hammond’s chair, and Teal’c is amusing himself with a magnifying glass, when Jack calls to warn them that the recruits are on their way.
Jack drawls, in a deliberately ominous voice, “Have fun, Daniel.”
“Yeah,” Daniel says, sitting up a little. “You did tell them to take me prisoner and not shoot me, right?”
The scene switches to Jack’s utterly expressionless face, and the faint, tinny sound of Daniel’s voice coming through the phone, still saying, “Right?” as Jack slowly hangs up.
Neither of these are actually practical jokes. Window of Opportunity gives us Jack, probably as an outlet for his frustration, allowing something to happen; but it’s not something he deliberately set up as a prank. Proving Ground was a deliberate setup, but it’s not a practical joke as much as it is part of a training exercise – even if it’s an aspect that Daniel would have preferred to avoid.
Conclusion: While it’s reasonable to extrapolate from Jack’s character that he probably enjoys practical jokes, there is no canon evidence that Jack has ever orchestrated a practical joke at the SGC.
My personal fanon opinion? None of the fanon assertions listed here are hugely out-of-character for Jack, even if the 2IC one turns out to be completely impractical on both a canonical and military basis. There are canon incidents in which Jack grouses about trees on other planets, and it’s clearly an in-joke among the SG teams. Jack’s personality is certainly well-suited to playing practical jokes. But the trick to fanon is knowing that it’s fanon, not canon. If a writer wants Jack to complain about trees, or play practical jokes on his friends/enemies, go right ahead – but please realize that it’s fanon, and adjust the frequency accordingly!
"Anyway, I'm sorry, but that just happens to be how I feel about it. What do you think?"
no subject
And as far as Daniel Canon v. Fanon goes, I could go look through them all again, but that would take an incredibly long time (because I can't seem to just search for what I'm looking for, I have to re-read. Always), so I guess I'll just ask here. Have you made an entry about Daniel and touching things, which inevitably leads to trouble? I suppose it's possible that a convincing argument could be made for the touching and the trouble, but I don't really remember anyone ever being all "Daniel, WHAT DID YOU TOUCH?! DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING! AAARHHHH!" like they are in multitudes of fanfic. Maybe without the egregious use of capslock, though. And maybe a few fewer exclamation points, but you get the idea.
no subject
Huh. I hadn't noticed a real preponderance of tree comments in stories but I wonder if that is a fannish meta in a lot of ways (teasing the show for always looking like Canada). I have to say Jack has always struck me as someone who appreciates trees - feels at home among them.
The 2IC thing is touchy. While everything you said is true, the show has never shown us anyone between Jack and Hammond (though there really does have to be). Really, we don't see much of the infrastructure behind running the SGC - which I think is actually a shame because it could have been used for an interesting story. But then, it also makes no sense for Daniel or Sam to be heads of Archaeology or Science either - department heads shouldn't be on 'gate teams.
The practical joke thing....just fits Jack's personality too well. We just don't get to see him with his hair down often enough and he's too professional to do it on while (seriously) on the job. that's my theory.
Now, with the series ended and [info]redial_the_gate not yet starting,
*mumbles*
working setting it up! I swear! Just being very fannishly lazy recently.
no subject
Have you made an entry about Daniel and touching things, which inevitably leads to trouble?
Hee! It's part of the next Daniel one, together with the clumsiness thing. It's definitely worth discussing, because hoo boy is that fanon blown out of proportion. :)
no subject
It probably depends on the author. Lots of writers use it lightly and appropriately. But there are a large number of stories that have Jack make a remark about trees the second they're through the Gate - as I said, certain fanfic writers seem to have a checklist. Trees, "for cryin' out loud," and Oz for starters. There are, in fact, a few authors who seem to think that if those elements are present, they needn't bother with proper characterization, as the setting is enough.
It was fun to go through the show and realize that the tree thingy wasn't restricted to Jack at all - the scene in Heroes, for example, is hilarious. That one little exchange makes it clear that the entire SGC is in on the tree joke, and that it's not exclusively Jack. But the fanon trope of always commenting on trees is just too much overkill for me.
As far as the 2IC thing:
While everything you said is true, the show has never shown us anyone between Jack and Hammond (though there really does have to be).
I'm using to seeing soldiers, but I know nothing about military protocol. I trust Codger, though. :) But even if, like me, you find it easy to accept that Hammond and Jack deal directly with each other without a go-between, that doesn't automatically translate into Jack being second in command of the entire base, which was the main point.
it also makes no sense for Daniel or Sam to be heads of Archaeology or Science either - department heads shouldn't be on 'gate teams
Hm. Can you point to a specific scene in canon where Daniel or Sam are actually called the heads of their departments? I can see Daniel more than Sam for that, to be honest - he probably created the archeology apartment in the first place, after all. But other than Sam always being The Scientist (tm) on behalf of the writers, is there any reference to her being head of sciences?
he's too professional to do it on while (seriously) on the job
That's my personal opinion, too. Yes, I can so see Jack creating an elaborate prank... but NOT at the SGC itself.
*mumbles*
working setting it up!
Hee! I wasn't trying to nag! But this little slice of time did make it easier to finally get this post up. :)
no subject
Yeah, I know enough (mostly from reading military history books and stuff - and the fact that all my bosses at my last job were ex-Army) about how the military works to know SGC has to have a lot more infrastructure than what we see, though I'm fine believing Jack and Hammond deal directly like that. I wonder how common Jack=2IC was before season 8 because, really, shouldn't someone else have been in line to run SGC anyway?
I don't know that canon says that - I just know I've seen it in fanon. "Avenger 2.0" strongly implies Sam is REALLY HIGH UP in the science division, though I'm not sure if it states she's top. You have a point about Daniel - it is probably a small department and probably his creation (and - look at Heroes - they call him to make the archaeological decision on whether the planet is significant).
That's my personal opinion, too. Yes, I can so see Jack creating an elaborate prank... but NOT at the SGC itself.
Oh, I could see, in the right circumstances, him pulling one at SGC - he'd just make sure it wouldn't interfere with anything important/life-threatening.
Hee! I wasn't trying to nag! But this little slice of time did make it easier to finally get this post up. :)
:) I've been nagging myself for days that I need to get it up already so...yeah...
no subject
The 2IC thing is tough, because TPTB never got into that aspect at all. Yes, obviously General Hammond couldn't be there 24/7, and Jack never sat in that chair when he was out. And yet Jack was very much (understandably) the person people would look to for orders if Hammond wasn't there. (They did show Sam officially in command while Landry was at the cabin in Uninvited. No word on whether she was the number 2, or who took over after she went up.) Just as a fan of the team I can see how it makes sense to have Jack as the go-to person for the military, Daniel as the go-to person for the social scientists and Sam as the go-to person for the hard sciences -- they have the most expertise in their areas. But since they're going offworld all the time, they aren't available. Plus, making them department heads means they'd spend more time doing paperwork than actually applying their expertise, so never mind. ;-)
And I agree about the joking, too. I see Jack's sense of childish playfulness mostly expressed at his own expense (playing with yo-yos or video games, playing stupid, feigning worry about whether he looks fat). He doesn't mind making himself look like a kid or a clown, whether it's to misdirect the enemy or to make himself more approachable than his big, bad colonel reputation. But you're right, he's the consummate professional soldier, always knows where the line is, and has the utmost respect for the service. The only thing he'll consider crossing the line for is extreme circumstances like imminent goa'uld invasion. (Unlike Vala, who is held up as Jack's replacement in the fun and games department, which -- ew. You already know my rant on Vala's lack of respect for appropriate behavior and other people's personal boundaries.)
no subject
no subject
I honestly have no trouble with ignoring military protocol to the point of accepting that Jack deals directly with Hammond, without any go-between. But that's a very far cry from Jack being 2IC of the actual base. That bit of fanon never ever made any sense to me, and discovering Codger's explanation was actually quite a relief. :)
They did show Sam officially in command while Landry was at the cabin in Uninvited. No word on whether she was the number 2, or who took over after she went up.
Seriously? I didn't watch that ep, actually. Come to think of it, wasn't there something going on in Ethon, too, where Landry was absent and no one quite wanted to sit in his chair?
Just as a fan of the team I can see how it makes sense to have Jack as the go-to person for the military, Daniel as the go-to person for the social scientists and Sam as the go-to person for the hard sciences
Ignoring the catch-all of Daniel knowing all social sciences and Sam knowing all hard sciences, are we? Dear silly writers. :) Again, I agree with you - aside from their knowledge, they also have the greatest experience. But that doesn't automatically equal department heads or The Ones In Charge.
I see Jack's sense of childish playfulness mostly expressed at his own expense
That's a very cogent point. He mocks himself, which in turn makes in impossible for anyone else to mock him. That's... very Jack-like in defense. And yes, he is way too professional for practical jokes on base. We can forgive his antics in WoO, I think; it took quite a while before he started going "whacko," and then it was Daniel who inspired the real goofing off. :)
Vala, who is held up as Jack's replacement in the fun and games department
I seem to have missed that one. Happily.
I don't hate Vala, y'know. I think her character's backstory is so contradictory, and her development so unrealistic, that I can't like who she is now because of what she was then. And yet I do like who she is now, a bit. Which is annoying, actually.
You already know my rant on Vala's lack of respect for appropriate behavior and other people's personal boundaries.)
Hm, yes. The pushy female stereotype gets on my nerves very rapidly. Double standards don't fit in any direction.
no subject
no subject
What an interesting question! And I have no idea. :) By the time I discovered Stargate, Moebius had already aired. To be fair, though, there wasn't even the suggestion of Jack succeeding Hammond as a matter of protocol; he was replacing Weir, because he was the president's darling for being a major catalyst in taking down Kinsey and for his role in saving the planet.
I, er, haven't seen Avenger 2.0, so I wouldn't know about the Sam thing. :) But nice insight into Heroes, there - Daniel does seem to be the final voice in nearly everything archeological/anthropological/Ancienty/how in the world did they agree to let him go to Atlantis?
no subject
I have an addition to the ones you've listed -- it seems to be an article of solid fanon that Jack is easily wakened and is a light sleeper because of his experience in Special Ops. Or that it's dangerous to startle him awake for the same reason. Also, that he can't be snuck up on while sleeping because he always hears you and wakes up. This is directly contradicted by canon several times, and the one that leaps to mind is in S8 Lockdown.
I haven't been around much because of various LJ and RL issues, but I'm enjoying these and watching for them.
*cheers*
no subject
I'm divided on this one. You're quite correct that there has to be a lot more infrastructure. But the part where Sam and Daniel have to run everything by their respective departmental bosses, or arrange in any story to get the chain of command between Jack and Hammond out of the way in order to focus on canon characters is really cumbersome for fic. Given how much of the briefing room we've seen over the years, it's hard to imagine that the positions between Jack and Hammond actually exist but we've just never seen them.
I'm not arguing that it's fanon. Just saying that it's very hard to portray a realistic military command in fanfic without really bending canon. I have to fanwank that the SGC runs perpetually shorthanded, partially due to the security clearance requirements for bringing in new personnel, and maybe partly due to funding constraints. Clearly, Hammond has a genius for circumventing the normal bureaucratic requirements in order keep his command running. *g*
no subject
Thanks for this information. So the 2IC thing was common fanon long before the idea of General Jack came into being... You're right when you say that it's very hard to portray a realistic military command in fanfic without really bending canon, and that's probably because it's apparently very hard to portray a realistic military command in canon, too. :)
Clearly, Hammond has a genius for circumventing the normal bureaucratic requirements in order keep his command running.
George was a genius at command, period. :)
no subject
I do agree with this, but only up to a point. It comes to characterization, I think. Like the Daniel/Danny thing - Jack called him "Danny" six times, but I find it HUGELY out of character when a fanfic has Jack calling him "Danny" on a regular basis. The author might well offer your argument in defense: that if Jack called Daniel by that nickname six times in canon, we can assume it was done much more often "off-screen." And I don't think it's true, because it doesn't fit their characters.
So the tree thing doesn't bother me when it's used as part of the background color of a story. If it's used to make the character more Jack-like - especially when precious little other characterization is present - then it bothers me a lot.
this is not my LJ and that's just my 2 cents
Oh, come now. :) To quote my profile page: "Participation is welcome, including (civil) rants."
Thanks for the suggestions! I have Jack's knees and mother-henning on my potential list, too. That's why I specifically labeled this "a Jack O'Neill edition" instead of "THE Jack O'Neill edition." I do hope I'll be able to manage another post or two about him in the future. :)
I'm glad you're still enjoying these!
no subject
I just can't help but think that, if that middle chain exists, it could be awkward to have Jack flip from being beneath them to being their boss.
You aren't missing much with Avenger (though there are a few good bits) and now I'm trying to remember. Pretty much, Felger is trying to prove he can do something good and it's Sam who he has to, um, show his work to and it's Sam who convinces Jack to give Felger one more chance. Pretty much, it's very clear that Sam is higher up than Felger in the science-department chain and that she (and Jack) have say on whether Felger can keep his experiments (and even stay at SGC). There isn't mention of some other science-y department head helping that decision.
Maybe they don't really have department heads - so Sam, Daniel, etc are just de-facto for decisions. Though, that would be inefficient and not make much sense.
Oh, but that's *why* Daniel should get to go to Atlantis. The Ancient expert should get to go play in a city that's ALL Ancient. He'd love it so much (and I want him happy). Though, given the Ancient's habit of leaving failed, deadly experiments/equipment completely functional and unlabeled (rather than taking them apart or putting up warning signs), Daniel probably shouldn't go to Atlantis. He doesn't have a good track record at not-dying.
no subject
!!!!
Yes! (I'm not 100% sure but I think that, ever since Solitudes, any time Jack gets injured it's always in the same leg). It drove me nuts in "Redemption" that he kept forgetting to limp, then remembering, then forgetting again.
no subject
I felt so sorry for Walter in Zero Hour, when Washington sent in the extra administrative assistant for Jack, and Walter basically said, "Oh, thank god you're here!" Then it turned out the guy was just there to suss Jack out and left a week later. But, but... Walter has to do all the admin assisting again?!
no subject
Ignoring the catch-all of Daniel knowing all social sciences and Sam knowing all hard sciences, are we?
Eh. It irks a bit more with Sam, because Daniel does have degrees/training in anthropology/archeology/linguistics/philology -- which are probably the fields represented at the SGC. They're not likely to have an economist or sociologist or philosopher on staff.
But the hard sciences are going to include chemistry and biology as well as physics (not even getting into the specialties within those fields...), and that's way more than Sam's training. For the most part she's shown more as "sitting in" on, say, the medical doctors' research, excpet when she's the only scientist around, and then she gets to be super-Sam. (And, just... a spork in the eye for the writers giving Bill Lee a plant to study in Zero Hour!)
We can forgive his antics in WoO
Oh, absolutely! That situation would drive anyone nuts. Even Teal'c cracked, so you know it was frustrating! I definitely put their behavior in "not typical" category for the latter half of that ep.
I seem to have missed that one. Happily.
Oh, yeah. It gets said a lot that it's such a good thing that Vala's around to loosen Daniel up, since Jack's not there to tease him. Which ignores the fact that Daniel only gets more tense when Vala's teasing; he doesn't loosen up at all, and he shouldn't. He never knows what lines she'll cross.
I like Vala, too, as a character. She's fun to watch, and she does have some great qualities and an outside viewpoint that she brings. And often her fun is just silly. But she crosses the line into inappropriate behavior often enough that I'd be freaked out if I actually had to deal with her in person.
no subject
"good" or "realistic" characterization can SO be in the eye of the beholder, you know? but that's part of the fun of fanfic -- to see how various writers can portray the people we see on screen. and i do agree with you that whatever we're doing, we should be doing it on purpose and not blindly following along.
looking forward to more on Jack, b/c i adore him, as you know. :).
no subject
Really? I'm going to have to check this out. That's almost as bad as the Targeted Eyebrow (tm)! :)
no subject
Yes, indeed. But then, imagine how awkward it would be for the military to find their chain of command abruptly supplanted by a civilian who is apparently openly anti-military... (that's not going by SGA, but by Weir's three eps on SG-1)
Er. I'm pretty sure Avenger was in S7. So why was Sam trying to convince JACK and not Hammond? That actually is the first vague hint that Jack has some hand in hiring/firing personnel, isn't it? Or was it just the writers being stupid about who's in charge of what...? I'll give you one guess which scenario I assume to be more accurate. ;)
The Ancient expert should get to go play in a city that's ALL Ancient. He'd love it so much (and I want him happy).
Happy Daniel is a good thing, yes. :) And he'd love it. The point I was trying to make, though, is that Daniel's fields of expertise are so widely diverse that it must take half a dozen staff members to replace him. Which makes him a little more unrealistic than I'd like him to be, so... hm.
given the Ancient's habit of leaving failed, deadly experiments/equipment completely functional and unlabeled (rather than taking them apart or putting up warning signs), Daniel probably shouldn't go to Atlantis. He doesn't have a good track record at not-dying.
Hee! Y'know, you have the most unique perspective on our guys, since you came from SGA to SG-1. You're the only fellow fan I know who went in that particular direction.
no subject
Poor Walter. He was safer when his job was just Chevron Guy. :)
no subject
Would you mind if I was childish enough to blame this on Landry? :) Seriously, the SGC in S9-10 seems to be run (badly) by committee - a mix of the IOA and Landry and SG-1 whenever they feel like it. Bad all round. I missed George's steady hand at the helm.
It irks a bit more with Sam, because Daniel does have degrees/training in anthropology/archeology/linguistics/philology -- which are probably the fields represented at the SGC.
Yes, this is true - the writers made Daniel expert in EVERYTHING to do with the social sciences and Sam expert in EVERYTHING to do with the hard sciences, and Daniel's, at least, is somewhat possible to handwave. But if you think about it, the writer's abuse of Sam's knowledge is only different from Daniel's in degrees of magnitude, because Daniel is suddenly an expert in every single culture and mythology across the globe, and that's just plain silly.
And, just... a spork in the eye for the writers giving Bill Lee a plant to study in Zero Hour!
Hee! Actually, my major Bill complaint is that his competence fluctuates according to the need of the plot. I don't mind him making mistakes - it's good for us to have a human, fallible scientist - but I do mind him being stupid.
Even Teal'c cracked, so you know it was frustrating!
That little quirk of a smile after he slammed the door in that guy's face makes me giggle every time. CJ does more with a nod and a gesture than a lot of actors can do while they're chewing up the scenery.
It gets said a lot that it's such a good thing that Vala's around to loosen Daniel up, since Jack's not there to tease him. Which ignores the fact that Daniel only gets more tense when Vala's teasing; he doesn't loosen up at all, and he shouldn't. He never knows what lines she'll cross.
Very well said. The only time I have EVER seen Daniel truly relaxed around Vala is in that episode I don't want to talk about.
Besides, Sam and Teal'c are perfectly capable of teasing Daniel.
no subject
Oh, yes. And I love when writers grant me with a new insight or twist into my perspective on a character. But if it's carried too far, well... Then it's someone named Jack O'Neill, but it's not my Jack, and it's time to hit the back button.
looking forward to more on Jack, b/c i adore him, as you know. :)
Heh. Never would have guessed, really! :)
no subject
They do show Daniel having to go back and research things that aren't his primary bailiwick -- he even researches Egyptology (e.g., in Seth), and that is his specialty. But it ebbs and flows depending on plot needs. Like Bill Lee. Like every other inconsistency. There is some damned lazy writing in SG, unfortunately.