I'm taking a temporary break from the current Canon vs. Fanon topic – The Care and Feeding of Archeologists – to address another aspect of fanon that has cropped up frequently in the last several posts. It also happens to be an aspect of fanon that utterly infuritates me at times, so I figured I might as well get it out of my system!
This topic is a little complicated, so we'll take it in sections.
Recap: Canon is defined as anything we see onscreen during Stargate: The Movie or episodes of the show; show supercedes movie when there's a contradiction. (The Goa'uld are snake-like creatures that wrap round the host's brain stem and spine, not whitish, Roswell-like creatues with pointed teeth). Fanon is defined as widely-accepted concepts that often appear in fanfic, but do not have any actual basis in canon.
So, the question is: When is canon not proof of canon?
We can divide the episodes of Stargate into four categories, with a single exception.
1. Episodes that take place in real time, within the framework of reality, with the characters in full control of their behavior.
2. Episodes that take place in real time, within the framework of reality, but with the characters under some kind of alien influence.
3. Episodes that take place either within an alternate reality or a separate timeline.
4. Episodes that do not actually take place within reality.
[The single exception is the episode 200, from Season Ten, in which reality and meta and parody are so insanely mixed that it's impossible to tell if any of it actually happened at all. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, the single unquestionably real event in that episode is that Daniel got new glasses.]
Any episode that falls into the first category can be used to offer canonical proof of events, behavior, personality, tastes, and motivations. This includes, confusingly enough, the events of TBFTGOG and POV, because those are alternate universes within the frame of the regular reality of canon.
Any episode that falls into the second category is a little more tricky; some canonical proofs are still valid, but many will not be. Depending on the circumstances and strength of alien influence, anything from motivation to taste to characterization might be compromised.
Episodes in the third category are highly suspect in terms of canonical proofs. Like the second category, the degree of validity depends on the divergence from "regular" reality; but by its very definition as an alternate reality/timeline, the characters have undergone enough differences in life experience that any action undertaken might not be reasonable from the in-canon character's POV.
Episodes in the fourth category cannot be used as canonical proof at all. While they might grant us some insight into the characters' psyches, authors that use unreal events to back up their stories are creating something that's – well – unreal.
(Spoilers for Seasons Nine and Ten are bracketed by warnings in red.)
Category #2 is probably the most interesting and challenging to define. (As an aside, it was interesting to discover how much more alien whammies they suffered in the earlier seasons, as compared to the later ones!) Let's examine the behavior of SG-1 when they're under the influence:
The Broca Divide. I don't read S/J fic but I very much doubt any writers point to Sam's attempts at seduction, when she was "devolving" into one of the Touched, as early proof of their attraction. Nor will anyone suggest that Jack has this burning need to turn Daniel into a cowed beta male, or that SG-3's Johnson truly hates Teal'c, or that Makepeace is a masochist for beating his fists into bloody stumps.
In fact, I mention The Broca Divide at all because it's so obviously of no use as a source of canon behavior. And just as no one will ascribe the behavior of the characters, when they were "touched," as being typical canonical behavior, any other episode in which the characters are influenced by alien substances/motivatoins must be equally suspect as canon.
Cold Lazarus. The Unity's actions and behavior as O'Neill might have been based on the alien's perception of Jack's motivations, but he wasn't Jack. So as good as it might be for Jack to gain a little catharsis by mourning in his son's bedroom, he never actually did it. Therefore, an author who wants to write about a Jack overwhelmed with grief would do better to look at other episodes for a more realistic reaction.
Brief Candle. Jack's fling with Kynthia is solely the result of being drugged. A more realistic canonical look at Jack's attitude towards one-night stands would be 100 Days, when Jack waited over three months before he accepted Laira's advances.
Fire and Water. This one is actually a bit tricky. Technically, the only influence that SG-1 suffered was the conviction of Daniel's death; however, Nem deliberately planted a vision of such horrible suffering that the team shied away from even the thought of returning. It could be argued that their demonstrations of grief were more exaggerated than they might have been, because of that influence; it can equally be argued that that while the conviction of death was false, their reactions were not. So is Jack's fury at losing Daniel enough to truly make him smash
Hathor. From the moment Hathor's pink mist entered a male's system until the moment she walked through the Stargate, none of the men's reactions can be accepted as normal characterization. At the same time, though, it must be conceded that something of their personalities still existed. Jack remained skeptical until she dosed him a second time, right before she
Tin
In the Line of Duty. From the moment Jolinar took Sam as host, none of her actions are actually hers. The sole moment is when Sam cries out to Jack – calling him Jack! – as he leaves her cell. It can be argued that it was Jolinar speaking, and it can be argued that it was actually Sam. There's no proof either way, and the choice is up to the fanfic writer.
Gamekeeper. This probably doesn't need to be said, but Gamekeeper-as-Hammond obviously can't be accepted as normal
Need. How much of Daniel's behavior, when under the influence of the sarcophagus, can be accepted as real? I would suggest that underlying attitudes might have had some basis in reality, but that verbalizations and actions did not.
For example, it's more than likely that Daniel suffers anxieties regarding whether or not he's earned Jack's respect; this was excaberated by the sarcophagus to the point where he could blow up at his friends, facing them down in the mine, and accuse Jack of never showing him any respect. Does Daniel actually believe that? Probably not; but he does probably worry about having Jack's respect, and the sarcophagus addiction caused him to erupt.
On the other hand, we know that Daniel was hardly ready to give up on Sha're, yet the sarcophagus changed his mind's chemistry and balance until he was ready to abandon Sha're and the SGC and run back to Shyla and the apparently naquadah-enhanced mousse she gave him for his hair.
Where does that leave the fanfic author? Treading very, very carefully, apparently. Writers do have more or less of a free hand in abscribing motivations during the events of the episode itself; but anyone using Daniel's reactions in a story that has nothing to do with the events of Need or its immediate repercussions might find themselves straying far from realistic characterization.
Message in a Bottle. Aside from telling us that Jack is capable of crying – even if it's tears of sheer agony – there are some interesting implications to Jack's behavior when he was pinned to the wall. Was his frantic insistence to Teal'c that he "shoot it!" his own reaction, or driven by the thing's need for power to grow? And the thing itself was definitely channeling Jack when it's first words, after Jack's death, were, "Good morning, campers." I'd say that writers can choose to go either way here.
Bane. Teal'c's behavior was strongly influenced by the venom, but there was enough of Teal'c left to deal with the punks and try to keep Ally safe. The only behavior that was unquestionably not Teal'c own motivation was the need to retreat to a place of dark quiet in order to… well… metamorphose himself to death. Yuk.
Spirits. The behavior of Connor, Warner, Hammond, and anyone else who was actually one of the "spirits" can obviously not be used as canonical proof of typical behavior.
The Fifth Race, and The Lost City. While Jack's mind was overtaken by the download, his personality was not. He still had the close rapport with his teammates; he displayed panic, frustration, and determination in much the same way he would under other circumstances. So in this case, while his actions are suspect, his characterization is not.
One False Step. This one is a little more straightforward than Need. Under the influence of white noise below their level of hearing – but not below the level of feeling – Jack and Daniel experienced extreme degrees of irritation, to the point where they were actively sniping at each other. However, while they lost their inhibitions and patience, there is no suggestion that their attitudes and feels were affected. So yes, Jack probably does think of Daniel as being a little "flaky," and Daniel probably does sometimes find Jack "condescending." Under normal circumstances, however, this is not something either of them would voice, or possibly even find irritating enough to want to do so.
Out of Mind/Into the Fire. Drugged and duped into believing everyone they know and love is dead for decades… the surprising thing is that Daniel is the only one staggering around in a daze, not that he's behaving so numbly.
Seth. Anything done under the nishta's influence cannot be accepted as typical canonical behavior, although it's interesting to see that neither Jack nor Daniel had forgotten what they knew about cleaning and assembling weaponry.
Legacy. Machello's little buggers have a lot to answer for, but Daniel, Jack, and Janet don't have to answer for their behavior under the buggers' influence.
Foothold. This one is less tricky than it looks. The creatures – lobstermen? – wore two devices: one that mimicked the appearance character (did they raid Jack's and Daniel's lockers for their civilian clothes?) and one that read their thoughts and personalities in order to mimic behavior. So essentially, unless the creatures were breaking character – as when the Paul Davis one howled and hissed – anything they said and did were actually in canonical character.
Urgo. We know Urgo influenced tastes – there is, to my knowledge, no other instance in which Teal'c drinks coffee, and Jack says, "And I don't even like yogurt!" And we know he influenced behavior – making them all sing, and causing Teal'c to turn on the defribillator. Emotion, however, seemed to be untouched; Urgo couldn't force them to like him, and their reactions to him seemed entirely characteristic – Jack advocating Urgo's destruction, for example, while Sam was more amused than anything else and Daniel argued for Urgo's sentience. So while I’m sure there are lots of stories out there where Urgo induced kissing (or more) for the author's OTP, I would suggest that such behavior is not bourne out by canon.
Upgrades. Inhibitions went out the window, and so did self-restraint. Any author who tries to use Upgrades as proof that Jack or Sam would blithely ignore
Personal tastes were probably still in character as well, including the way they liked their steaks, Jack's preferences in snacks, and Sam's liking for Diet Coke.
Beneath the Surface. This episode is most fascinating for how much of them really did still remain "beneath the surface." While their behavior and memories had been stamped, the essence of what they were remained. Jack and Sam, as trained military officers who obey orders, were unwilling to challenge their apparent way of life; it was Daniel, the anthropologist, who sensed contradictions in their behavior and sought answers. And it was Dr. Sam Carter who sought engineering solutions to problems, and it was Team Leader Jack O'Neill who snapped out of it most completely and took charge at the end. Like Hathor, I would suggest that their behavior here can't be used to support similar behavior elsewhere, but the actors stayed within character of who they're supposed to be.
The Light. There are three separate aspects here. I'll deal with the easiest one first.
The slighter withdrawal symptoms that Jack and Sam experienced – when Jack blew up at Janet, and when both Jack and Sam yelled at each other on the beach – can be dismissed as uncharacteristic. (No, I'm not suggesting that Jack wasn't truly anguished that Daniel was dying. I'm saying that he wouldn't yell at the Little Doc under other, similar circumstances when he wasn't influenced by The Light.)
The more extreme symptoms we saw Daniel experience – his rudeness to Jack and to
Suicide – Barber's successful attempt, and Daniel and the rest of SG-5's aborted attempts – can probably also be dismissed as uncharacteristic. A fanfic writer might be able to argue that Daniel has suicidal tendencies, but it would have to be a really compelling argument, and I'd probably still be skeptical. Daniel is the anti-poster boy for suicide – starting from the movie, when he talked Jack out of the option, right on through his determination to keep going in the face of tragedy after tragedy. As I said, it's technically possible to argue that canon here supports suicidal tendencies from Daniel, but I would strongly disagree, and I would personally dismiss a fanfic with a suicidal Daniel as being outside canonical behavior.
Entity. Sam is not herself when she's in a computer instead.
Enemies/Threshold. Not only is Teal'c acting unlike the Teal'c we know, but Threshold also teaches us that he isn't acting like the Teal'c he was – even before he met Jack, First Prime Teal'c was riddled with uncertainties and doubts about Apophis. (AU Teal'c in Moebius was similarly uncertain, even before he rebelled, but as I'll explain later, that's an unfair proof for our Teal'c.)
The Fifth
Rite of Passage. While the person influenced was Cassie, rather than SG-1, it still deserves mention. Cassie is shown as a perfectly normal teenager with a love/hate relationship with her mother both before the illness affects her and after she recovers. Her reactions to Janet during her illness should be treated as uncharacteristic and not as canonical behavior.
Abyss. Host influences the symbiote, rather than the other way round… "We don't leave our people behind."
Fallen. Despite having no memories, Daniel is unquestionably himself – even irritatingly himself, Jack might suggest.
Fragile Balance. Mini!Jack is so deliciously in character that he's almost moreso than Jack himself.
Lifeboat. Daniel is only present in the first and final moments of the show, plus "Janet? What's going on?" Any behavior or attitudes displayed throughout the rest of the episode cannot be ascribed as typical Daniel behavior.
Evolution, part 2. It might be suggested that Daniel was somewhat influenced by his exposure to the Telchak device during his second torture session. Certainly, he recovered quickly enough to engineer their escape from the shack. I personally didn't see any sign of erratic behavior, but I've read fanfics that imply that he was shorter with Bill than he might have otherwise been. I don't think it matters very much, either way.
Chimera. The events that took place in Daniel's dreams cannot be wholly accepted as canon. While the basic facts are true – the ones that Daniel himself confirms in his conversations with Sam and Teal'c – the dreams were being manipulated by Osiris to get Daniel to translate the tablet for him/her. So yes, Daniel and Sarah first met in
Lockdown. When Anubis possesssed the various characters, he allowed them to act as themselves – until he directly intervened. So Vaselov acted like himself all along; Daniel acted like himself when he summoned help for Vaselov and walked with him to the infirmary; and Jack and Sam seemed to act like themselves, right up to the moment they started zatting people. Canon characterization, therefore, depends on what Anubis was doing.
Gemini. Did Replicarter plant suggestions or behavioral changes in Sam's mind when they interfaced? Many Sam fans apparently wish that was the case, to serve as an excuse for the mistakes she made in this episode.
Reckoning. Replicarter invades Daniel's mind and manipulates him into "talking" with Oma, but his characterization remains the same. If anything, the influences go the other way, as Replicarter enters "Danny's world" and gets a very emphatic taste of her own medicine.
Threads. Is Daniel under alien influence here? I would say not. Daniel evidently remembers his time in the Waffle House at the End of the Universe, as [season 10 spoiler for Pegasus Project] he refers to human as "lowers" when talking to Morgan Le Fay.
Season Nine Spoilers ahead!
Collateral Damage. Mitchell remembers what didn't happen, but retains enough of himself to know he wouldn't act in such a manner. The memory, obviously, can't be used for characterizing Mitchell, but his other behavior in the show can. (Too bad, considering his stupidity in going home with her in the first place; but good, considering the memories of the missle accident and the rapport with his father.)
Stronghold. While many fans care little for the
ETA: Thanks,
aurora_novarum, for pointing out that I missed Crusade. Vala takes control of Daniel, and he has no control. Vala-in-Daniel does a lot of things our Daniel wouldn't normally do, including ogling the men (especially Cameron) in the shower room and licking a plate of chocolate ice cream, leaving a tell-tale blob on his nose - or is it her nose? As I pointed out in a previous post, there is apparently something about possessed Daniels and messy ice cream.
Season Ten Spoilers ahead!
Momento Mori. Vala's behavior, after she's lost her memory, can be considered as either entirely characteristic or entirely out of character, depending on the author's view of Vala. Since opinions on Vala in this fandom are at opposite sides of the spectrum, I'm not even going to attempt to define it.
End Spoilers.
On to Category #3: Episodes that take place outside the timeline, or in an alternate universe. Can writers draw on the behavior we see in these episodes to create canonical characterization? Yes and no, depending. The wise author will tread carefully, though.
Window of
The question remains, though: are the actions they took, when no consequences existed, actually things they really wanted to do, or simply things they could get away with? S/J fans have one answer to a certain event, while non-shippers like me have another. :) I seriously doubt, though, that anyone would suggest that Jack has always harbored a secret longing to play golf through the Stargate.
The fun thing about WoO fanfic is the ability to take the characters just about anywhere, because the fanfic author has been given a reset-the-universe-free card. Once the machine is turned off, however, a little more caution is required. Any fanfic writer who tries to sell me on the idea that Jack and Teal'c organize an annual Stargate Golfing Festival is going to be met with extreme skepticsm. (Okay,
kellifer_fic actually did this, and it was hilarious. But it was also tongue-in-cheek, so doesn't count.)
2010. This riveting episode gave us SG-1 ten years into a very different future. Can writers use the behavior we see in this episode for characterization under different cirucmstances? Well, yes and no.
Their individual mannerisms remained the same: Teal'c drinks fruit juice instead of champagne, for example, while Janet's caring personality is the same and Sam's skeptic need for proof remains unchanged. Daniel's personality is intact, as evidenced by his, "Uh, guys? The sun is beeping." And Jack's attitude, once he joins them on their quest to change the past, is perfectly Jack.
On the other hand, the characters' reactions to past events – events, that is, that have taken place in the past in the timeframe of the episode, but haven't yet taken place in the real timeframe of canon – cannot be accepted as real characterization. That means that Jack's bitterness towards his teammates isn't acceptable as regular post-retirement Jack behavior… unless, of course, the fanfic author gives him the motivation of a similar act of apparent betrayal by the rest of SG-1.
Moebius. While underlying personalities were similar – Daniel's drive to discover the unknown and his determination to keep Sam in the loop, for example, and Jack's ability to take charge, and Sam's love for science, and Teal'c's secret longing to rebel against Apophis – each of these four people led such different lives that their behavior is completely different from "our" reality's counterparts. Therefore, the characterization of the AU Sam, Teal'c, Jack, and Daniel cannot be used as canonical behavior for the regular characters. If anything, it's the other way round: the characterizations we know influence the AU characters, modified by the different life experiences.
Season Nine Spoiler! Ripple Effect. The behavior of the "black" SG-1 cannot be used as characterization for our SG-1, although it's an awful lot of fun for fanfic writers to try and come up with justification for black SG-1's behavior.
End Spoilers.
Finally, we come to Category #4: Episodes that don't really happen. While these episodes are often the most fascinating, their usage as canon is also the most infuriating for me. Basically, if it didn't happen, it's not canon. A lot of fanfic writers don't seem to understand this, though, and it can be really, really annoying.
Forever in a Day. I am in awe at how beautifully this episode is crafted, even if I would have wished for Sha're and Daniel to have some kind of happier ending. I could write pages and pages on this episode, and maybe I will, some day. But astonishing as it is to me, a lot of fanfic writers don't seem to realize that the majority of the events in this episode did. not. happen.
Daniel never left the SGC. Rothman never joined SG-1. Sam never offered Daniel chocolate walnut cookies (although that doesn't contradict his liking for them – on the contrary, they're part of his vision because he does). Daniel never cold-shouldered Teal'c. And Sam and Jack never hugged Daniel in his apartment (although it surely happened, at least once, on some other occasion).
Besides, he was wearing his Cream Existential Sweater™, which is a dead giveaway.
There is a very clear frame to define the beginning and ending of reality. In the last seconds of the opening teaser, we see Daniel's pistol slip through his fingers. In the last seconds before Teal'c fires his staff weapon at the end of the episode, we see the pistol hit the ground. Everything else in the episode happens in the seconds it takes for the pistol to fall and strike the floor of the tent.
…In other words, everything else doesn't happen at all. It's a vision, sent to Daniel by Sha're through the hand device, with a dual purpose: to ask him to find her son, and to convince him that he must forgive Teal'c and continue his journey through the Stargate.
I've never made a secret of how much I love Sha're, and this episode made me love her even more. It's more important to Sha're that Daniel forgive Teal'c and have a reason to keep living than it is that Daniel find her son; she wouldn't give him the necessary clues about the boy until Daniel had forgiven Teal'c in the vision. The vision continues until Sha're is sure Daniel has come to some kind of acceptance; then she tells him about Kheb, kisses him farewell, and ends the vision, ready for her death.
Since the vision is Daniel's, everything that happens within the vision takes place within Daniel's POV. (For example, Jack arguing with
It amuses me that the "purple planet" is one of the Stargates we see in Reckoning. Either the planet really exists, and SG-1 went there at a later time; or even the director got confused; or they just pulled out stock footage without bothering to check the source. I leave the choice to the reader. :)
So when an author has Teal'c remembering Daniel's refusal to forgive him; or has Sam remembering Daniel telling her about Sha're and ballpoint pens; or mentions the time that Rothman was on SG-1, because Daniel had left – all those references are false. Please, do me a favor: don't use them.
Absolute Power. I think it's important to recognize that this episode doesn't actually give us a clear look at Daniel's head; rather, it's a vison crafted entirely by Shifu, giving Daniel a clear look at what it means for anyone to have absolute power that corrupts absolutely. This is Daniel without his moral compass, but it doesn't mean that a Daniel who loses his moral compass would necessarily choose this particular direction, even if the same opportunities presented themselves.
Certainly, some aspects of the dream seem scarily plausible. Would an amoral Daniel avenge Sha're's death by killing Teal'c? Would a Daniel in power take vindictive glee at going over the military's heads to make his own decisions? The answer, unfortunately, has to be, "We don't know." This is not Daniel's vision; it's Shifu's.
Fanfic authors might disagree, of course. I'm sure that Daniel would. This is my own analysis, and others might reach conclusions of their own.
The Changeling. This one is a little tricky – especially for me, since I have very little knowledge of Season Six. ("Huh? There were more than three episodes that year?") So I'm not sure how much of the characterization is not precisely what it should be. However, Changeling is a little different from FIAD; not only does most of it take place entirely in Teal'c's head, but it's completely a product of Teal'c's mind, without any outside influence. Daniel himself (in his Cream Existential Sweater™) confirms this; his presence there was only to give Teal'c some kind of anchor, not because he was creating the scenario.
From the moment the episode begins until the moment a badly wounded Teal'c finds himself lying on the ramp in the Gateroom, there is only one scene that does not take place within Teal'c's mind: the moments when we see the site of the massacre, and watch Teal'c take Junior out of Bra'tac's symbiote pouch and place it in his own. Everything else does. not. happen.
So how real is the characterization of the people we see in Teal'c's imagined realities? Essentially, the characters are behaving as Teal'c perceives them. Teal'c sees Jonas as the rookie, even after all these months on SG-1; therefore, in the fireman scenario, Jonas is "Probie." Teal'c sees Sam and Jack as competent leaders, so they act as such in his visions. Bra'tac's behavior, as "Bray," doesn't precisely fit the Bra'tac we all know and love so much; on the other hand, Teal'c must have been aware, on some vague level, of what was really happening, and Bray's acceptance of inevitable death might have been colored by Teal'c's perceptions.
So what kind of characterization can we take, canonically, from The Changeling? Mostly, it's how Teal'c sees his friends… and himself. The scenes with Apophis are astonishingly creepy. So this episode serves as a good source for what Teal'c thinks of the others, but not such a good source of canonical behavior of the characters themselves.
ETA: The Other Guys/Avenger 2.0.
aurora_novarum once again catches something I missed! I've never seen these eps, so I skipped them.
Grace. Like Changeling, the behavior of the characters is Sam's hallucinations aren't based on reality as much as they are on Sam's perceptions of her friends. Thus, Teal'c urges defense; Daniel suggests communication; Jacob is the father, wanting what's best for his daughter; and Jack is her CO, challenging her to keep moving and make the right decisions. None of the conversations are actually happening, though. (Bizarrely, the writers forget this and use Jacob's conversation in the "previouslies" for Threads.)
So all we can take from the characterization in the hallucinations is an understanding of how Sam percieves her friends… especially the hilarious confirmation that Sam is convinced that Daniel is a shameless flirt. :)
My personal fanon opinion? Authors have over two hundred episodes as canonical source for their characterization of Sam, Teal'c, Jack, and Daniel. Even those episodes that don't fit the mold – whether it's due to alien influence, different timelines or universes, or non-reality – can be sources of insight; and, of course, the characterization can be used for fanfics that are directly related to those episodes. But please: remember what's real and what's not, and write your stories accordingly!
"Anyway, I'm sorry, but that just happens to be how I feel about it. What do you think?"
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Avalon 2, Origin, and Crusade:
The first two Daniel and Vala *were* the invading aliens, and were acting in character for themselves. Apparently Harrid and Sallis didn't influence Daniel and Vala's behavior. So it should be read as canon. However they were pretending sometimes to be Harrid and Sallis as "cover". [Apparently H &S had no knowledge of what was going on according to Crusade, which I think was a bad interpretation...but that may be personal issues, LOL]
In Crusade, Vala was invading Daniel. Like with Harrid and Sallis, Daniel had no influence over her behavior (at least any more than he ever has when he can talk), so anything done would be Vala--I'm not getting into any pregnancy hormone issues. In the same manner, Daniel's consciousness was completely suppressed and he had no awareness or memory of what happened when Vala was in his body. Therefore, any "plate licking", diet preferences, or ogling Mitchell or other team members should not be attributed to Daniel's behavior.
Also, you've forgotten the Felger episodes (I'm sure you tried). But those are serious canon debate. However, from later episode references to events:
The Other Guys: (I know, I know, you haven't seen it) Everything in the episode happened up to the final escape through the Stargate. Everything afterwards (specifically the "medal" scene) was a dream sequence.
Some argue the whole ep was a dream except for the final nerd-geek exchange by Felger and Coombs at the end. But even if you don't go by production interviews, the reappearance of the First Prime in "Full Circle" with past history of SG-1 would indicate TOG was canon.
Avenger 2.0: In the same way, everything in the episode except for the final sequence in Jay's lab was canon. This is later borne out by several references to the multiple gate dialling program by Ba'al in "Reckoning" and later by Nerus in Season 9 and by Ba'al again in Season 10. Avenger did happen. Daniel was stuck in the rain, Teal'c and Jack were doing Jaffa negotiations. And Sam, Chloe and Felger worked on a program later leaving Sam and Jay trapped offworld.
However, Chloe and Jay didn't get together in the end with Sam interrupting in the "chick fight" while Jack and Jay looked on. That was a dream.
You didn't address the other universes of TBFTGoG and Point of View. I mean, they're different universes, different Jacks and Sams and Hammonds and Teal'cs (and Kawalksys), with different life experiences. Hence not canon. :-)
Excellent discussion topic, fig!
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Didn't realize I wasn't logged in.
no subject
I considered Avalon/Origin but dismissed it, since our characters are wonderfully in character - in fact, when "Harrid" tells "Sallis" not to be afraid, it's the best characterization we get of Daniel in nearly all of S9. (yeah, I know you don't agree ::bg::) And isn't that beautiful Harrid/Sallis story yours? Loved that one! I do agree, though, that Crusade deserves mention, and will edit to include.
I haven't watched either Felger ep, so what you say is interesting. Will edit to add that, too.
I did address TBFTGOF and POV - in category #1. Sorry. :)
Glad you're enjoying!
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No, I agree, I mean Daniel was very much in character as Daniel/Harrid at that point. Or are you saying I would disagree that's the most Daniel-like moment?
Yeah, the Harrid story's mine. LOL. I was very annoyed that canon proved the fic would be impossible in "Crusade". I had interpretive canon on my side until that point! (Though I think I'm happy Daniel has no memory of what Vala did in Crusade).
Ack, I missed the two other Alt universes in your posts? I thought I had read it, and then when I looked back I couldn't find it. Pooh. Sorry. :-)
Felger eps: I agree the viewpoint of the eps are sorta skewed from his point of view (but there are scenes not from his POV). And if Felger was really dreaming it all? He'd be a lot less klutzy and inept. Deluded nerd. I know I've seen some people deny they were canon at all even, and were quite put out when later canon proved them real. (Of course, I know some fanboys who wish the *only* real part was the Chloe/Sam wrestling match, heh).
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No, I agree, I mean Daniel was very much in character as Daniel/Harrid at that point. Or are you saying I would disagree that's the most Daniel-like moment?
I meant that I know you're a fan of S9, and I'm not, really. :)
Oh, we can handwave it that Sam's fiddling with the device short-circuited Daniel's ability to be aware of what was happening, but Harrid and Sallis didn't have that problem. Because without the wonderful backstory you provide in your fic, the SGC essentially condemned to innocent people to death, and that's just... ugh.
As for the quantum mirror eps, I referred to them before the LJ cuts began:
Any episode that falls into the first category can be used to offer canonical proof of events, behavior, personality, tastes, and motivations. This includes, confusingly enough, the events of TBFTGOG and POV, because those are alternate universes within the frame of the regular reality of canon.
There ya go!
Felger eps: I got that theory from Arduinna's site. The theory she offers is that if Felger isn't in a scene, then what we see is what actually happened; if Felger is present, we're seeing his hero-worship of SG-1 in general and Jack in particular. Hey, if it works for her, works for me. ;)
So glad I never watched these! Is there anyone out there who actually likes Felger?
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I'm sure there is...somewhere. Definitely...er, probably...maybe. LOL. I haven't met one yet, but I'm sure there's someone. I love Coombs (TOG) and Chloe (Avenger 2.0). They were great. (I actually don't hate Felger with the passion of 1,000 burning nuns as many do, but "like" would be strong description of how I feel about him. Heh).
Actually, there's only one character I truly hate and can find no redeeming qualities (redeeming as in entertainment value, I'm not trying to find the "goodness" of a replicator or Goa'uld, heh). And I can't even explain why, except the character shows up invariably in episodes I abhor. Coincidence? Hmm.
Aw, poor Mitchell. Heh. Yeah, there's no real season of Stargate I hate. And to choose favorites would be hard. Maybe my least favorite is S5. I dunno. All of them have highs and lows.
Any episode that falls into the first category can be used to offer canonical proof of events, behavior, personality, tastes, and motivations. This includes, confusingly enough, the events of TBFTGOG and POV, because those are alternate universes within the frame of the regular reality of canon.
Hmm, I'd still say alternate universes are different enough. The core of the character may be the same, but different experiences will lead to different motivations and behavior. Like what you were describing for 2010 with embittered Jack.
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I guess I wasn't clear enough. Of course we can't use dead General Jack's characterization for our own Jack; I meant that the characterization of those characters is reality-canon, only on the other side of the quantum mirror. :)
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Oh! I see. Yes, of course. Totally makes sense. :D
Oh, the character I hate? I try and block out her name. Um...well I just call her the "reporter chick". First appears in Prometheus, then shows up in the ep with the Nanny guy from Season 8, and was in another one somewhere along the lines too. I mean it's not like I know/pay attention to the actress (though I wonder if the tenor of her voice sets me off). I just have this visceral reaction to her.
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Bwaha! I had never thought of it that way, but you're absolutely right. I read that and almost instantly decided my new personal fanon was that the sweater was Daniel's favorite at some point, but he somehow lost it or had to throw it out in, like...1992. He's still pissed about it, and is still inexplicably wearing it when he visualizes himself in his own head.
Anyway, another excellent post. I love these! I think Moebius might actually fit different categories depending on which team you refer to. I would think the first time line, featuring SG-1, would be a 1. They aren't in another time line, they just went back in time, so if someone were to write about thatSG-1, everything until the loop starts is straight canon, like 1969. The AU team, like you talked about, would be a 3. And for SG-1 as we have them now, it never happened. Daniel opened a box, they watched a tape, got a ZPM, and went fishing. (And figuring out the deal with the two "real" SG-1s is a whole other can of worms, but...yeah.)
As for all the other no. 4s...they tend to be really confusing, so people getting it mixed up doesn't generally irritate me, although I notice it a lot, particularly related to Forever In a Day. It drives me insane that the writers and producers can't keep it straight.
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It's sort of like Teal'c in the Changeling, or Sam in Grace, where we get to see Daniel's friends from his own perspective and how Daniel would imagine his friends reacting to this particular situation. We don't really know how much Sha're has influenced this point of view as opposed to how much we can see Shifu has influenced Daniel.
Oh, which also brings me to Citizen Joe . How many of Joe's emotions regarding the things he sees about SG:1 belong to him, and how many are a direct result of the way Jack has experienced the events? I've seen it argued that during Meridian for example, that Jack doesn't display too many outward emotions regarding Daniel's return, but Joe is kneeling in his driveway, in tears. HOw much of that is Joe, and how much of it is Jack? During Abyss we see how Jack is reacting to Daniel's presence, and Joe is bouncing off walls and kicking his heels in the air in happiness. I could probably write a huge-ass essay on that episode as well in regards to why Joe responds the way he does.
I must say, I'm really lovin' the way you're approaching this meta on canon vs fanon. Keep up the good work!
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That should be " Jack doesn't display too many outward emotions reguarding Daniel's death, not return. Somehow that got all messed up because I originally talked about Abyss first. Then I had to go to gateworld and look at the episode transcript for it because I've only seen "Citizen Joe" twice.
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Yes, you're right about Moebius being confusingly multiple categories. But the Daniel who went back isn't category #1 any more - not after he witnessed the deaths of Sam, Teal'c, and Jack, not to mention spending years in Ancient Egypt. In fact, the team only remains as category #1 until the scene where they discover they're trapped. After that, their life experiences are so scarily different from the regular SG-1 that there's just no comparison.
And is the SG-1 of the last scene the same SG-1 we saw in the beginning...? Argh. Who knows?!
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I think that determining the degree of how much of the vision is Sha're's and how much is Daniel's is pretty much subjective. On the one hand, the "scenery" was wholly supplied by Daniel: the SGC and his apartment, neither of which Sha're ever saw; Sam offering Daniel walnut chocolate cookies for comfort - something Daniel would imagine his friend doing for him. On the other hand, emotions and reactions were clearly manipulated by Sha're, as she was trying to get Daniel to see and understand that blaming Teal'c and leaving the SGC were not the right choices for him. So Daniel's anger, Teal'c's pleas for forgiveness - all that was Sha're. The windowdressing, like Rothman and ballpoint pens? That was Daniel.
Now, this is probably veering into subjectivity, but I always understood the repeats of the hand-device and "Hear me, Danyel," to be a sort of reset - Daniel has reached a certain point of acceptance, and now Sha're can bring it to the next level.
So really, it's both - aspects of AP and Changeling and Grace. Just to be complicated. :)
I have to say that your comments on Citizen Joe strike me as very intriguing. Of course, you're suggesting we take it seriously, which I don't think many people do; after all, Joe is the writers' view of the ultimate fanboy more than anything else. :) But if we're going to take Joe seriously - and hey, why not? - it is definitely a fascinating topic to explore. If his vibes from Jack were based on his reports, how much of an emotional bleed-through was there? Was it Jack's feelings, as expressed by someone who never learned to suppress them the way our Black Ops colonel did, or was it Joe, learning to love these people he'd never actually met?
...I have no idea. But boy, isn't it fun to ask?
So glad you're enjoying these!
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now i have to watch FIAD again, because I had heard a brief version of this interpretation of it before, but didn't agree with it. now I really want to watch it again after seeing your take on how much of it was a vision. so thanks for that.
one of the chief pleasures of SF is that you get the chance to spin out these kinds of extrapolations from the characters because of technology, time travel, alien influence, all the things you mention. the fact that it's SF gives us a whole raft of ways to blow up the ship!
thanks again.
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(But I'm interested in reading your huge-ass essay on it, heh).
Like fig said, though, they undercut any serious ideas about Joe Spencer when they retconned Jack sensing Joe's memories for seven years.
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But...eeeeehh, I got the vibe from the episode, and get it every time I've seen it, that the writers were mostly making fun of Daniel fans with Joe beating his chest at the heavens and bouncing around off of buildings and telephone poles. : - / Of course, that's a possible behind-the-scenes explanation, with not so much bearing on Jack himself.
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I'm curious, though. You said: "I had heard a brief version of this interpretation of it before, but didn't agree with it."
So you didn't see it as a vision? You understood that it really happened? Please elaborate, because I don't see how that's even possible. How do you explain the constant "rebooting," then?
And, yeah... SG-1 can be so much fun sometimes. I'm working on Daniel's infirmary visits in canon and snickering at the numbers racking up in the "actually dead" column. ;)
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I do have a preliminary question, though. In the Netu episode, didn't Daniel relive part of one of the scenes we saw in FIAD? Didn't they expand on it? I took the Blood of Sokar memories as all having been based on things that really happened, not memories of visions or dreams. If FIAD was all a vision, how could the memory of talking to Jack after Sha're's death about Kheb have been accessible to Apophis' interrogation?
But that's just one tidbit. I want to come back shortly after I watch FIAD again.
Thanks again for a truly fun and meaty canon discussion! Suitable for all audiences! :D.
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By all means, enjoy your reviewing, and I look forward to your comments.
Regarding your preliminary question, though:
In the Netu episode, didn't Daniel relive part of one of the scenes we saw in FIAD? Didn't they expand on it? I took the Blood of Sokar memories as all having been based on things that really happened, not memories of visions or dreams. If FIAD was all a vision, how could the memory of talking to Jack after Sha're's death about Kheb have been accessible to Apophis' interrogation?
No, no contradiction here.
FIAD, in reality, ended with Sha're's death and Daniel's whispered, "I love you, too." The episode ends while they're all still in frozen tableau in the tent where Sha're died.
Nothing in the vision suggested disbelief on Jack's part, or anyone's part. On the contrary: once Daniel turned away from the "leave the SGC option," he consulted both Sam and Teal'c and got confirmation that yes, it was technically possible for the hand device to communicate thought and yes, there is such a thing as a "harcesis." All that is beside the point, though, since it never happened...
What did happen - offscreen - is that sometime between the end of FIAD and Jolinar's Memories/The Devil You Know, Daniel told Jack about his vision and Jack was his usual skeptical self. It's quite probably that Sam and Teal'c couldn't make the same confirmations that they did in Daniel's vision, too. There was clearly some conflict, although it's all offscreen, and there have been some really lovely fics on the subject! Finally, Jack resolved the conflict and told Daniel those lovely words: "I know I don't always sound like I believe you, but I do believe in you." ::happy sigh:: From that point on, looking for Kheb and "the boy" became part of SG-1's policy, as per their sidetracking to check out a temple when they were late returning to the SGC at the beginning of Foothold.
So the vision that Daniel saw with the Blood of Sokar, warped to suit Apophis' needs? Yes, it happened – but off-screen, when we never saw it. With the difference – I'm assuming this, but it seems pretty plausible – that in the "real" scene, Jack already knew about Kheb, and in the scene in The Devil You Know, the word "Kheb" is precisely what Apophis is trying to get out of Daniel.
And quite frankly, I really really really wish we could've seen the scene, and many others, where Daniel tries – and fails – to convince the others about his new quest. That would have been some truly delicious angst, dontcha think?
Here's a canon vs. fanon question for you! I have this picture in my head of Daniel asking Jack in S7, "How many other commanders have to pitch missions based on dreams?" Is this a quote from canon, or from a fic? Because really, Jack did that a lot, whether you classify them as dreams or forgotten memories. Teal'c dreamed of Ry'ac getting his symbiote, and they mounted a (failed) mission. Sam dreamed the coordinates to meet the Tok'ra. Daniel searched for Kheb, and discovered Bra'tac's and Ry'ac's plight on Tartarus.
There might be more, but that's all I can remember at the moment.
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Re your question: That quote about dreams, I am 99 percent sure, is from a fic and not from canon. I have watched S7 fairly recently. But of course I could be wrong!
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well, yeah.
It certainly isn't from FIAD, if that's what you mean. All of the Sokar-induced hallucinations were new footage for us, and we're meant to understand that all of them happened... but Apophis is warping them, just a little bit, to try and get the info he wanted. The only difference is that Daniel's is the only warped memory that actually takes place within the timeframe of the show. Jack's is right before the movie; Sam's is fifteen or so years in the past. Martouf's...? No idea, but it had to happen before Jolinar ended up on whatever-planet-that-was where she jumped into Sam.
I'll take your word for it re the dream quote. Of course, now it's going to drive me insane until I find it again. :)
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Here ya go: The Quality of Mercy, by ELG.
"Oh, come on, Jack. No one else has to put up mission proposals based on what someone saw in a dream."
"Hey, we saved Teal'c's kid. We met the Tok'ra. We're going to find Sha're's son. My team delivers."
And shame on me for mixing fanon and canon, even if ELG is one of my favorite gen authors... better get back to work! ;)
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This was a great discussion- I'm very picky about what belonged to what reality/AU/timeline. I'd probably a commented more but I was stuck in corporate training hell last week.
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And I love how careful you are with AUs and realities. One of my favorite bits of your POV-verse was the inconporation of Tobias, which lent such a delightful flavor of uncertainty to the traitor question. Because without Sam in the mix, it made sense for Tobias to get SG-1 instead. Such a good use of canon to make your AU a canon of its own!
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As I said, it's technically possible to argue that canon here supports suicidal tendencies from Daniel, but I would strongly disagree, and I would personally dismiss a fanfic with a suicidal Daniel as being outside canonical behavior.
Normally, I would agree with this conclusion completely. Though now I'm really curious how you would react to a very short season 2 ficlet I wrote--a couple of readers took my characterization of Daniel there to be at least unconsciously suicidal. Here's the link (Chaapa'ai (http://izhilzha.livejournal.com/13045.html#cutid1)), if you're interested/bored.
Grace. Like Changeling, the behavior of the characters is Sam's hallucinations aren't based on reality as much as they are on Sam's perceptions of her friends. [snip] None of the conversations are actually happening, though. (Bizarrely, the writers forget this and use Jacob's conversation in the "previouslies" for Threads.)
I didn't mind the use in the "previouslies," since I would argue that the conversations *did* happen--for Sam. *shrug* Other use, though, would definitely need to take that into account.
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I wandered over to read your story and I liked it because you left it rather ambiguous. Is he talking suicide there? You clearly intended it to be, from your replies to the comments. But it can equally be interpreted as Daniel's longing to just go, and keep going, and maybe find escape from the torments inside his own head - either in the nothingness of the wormhole or in places he finds beyond. I have no problem with ambiguity like this. A Daniel that consciously plans to jump off his balcony - now that's a different story. ;)
That's a nice reflection there: that in a way, it did happen to Sam, so it's technical "previously" for her. But considering that this was done by the same brilliant PTB that gave us a glimpse of the purple-flowered planet in Reckoning, despite it being part of Daniel's FIAD dream and therefore not real, I'm not all that inclined to be generous about it!
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Glad you liked the ambiguity in the fic. I didn't exactly *mean* it to be about suicidal!Daniel, but I was very curious as to whether readers would take it that way, because there's a fine line that sometimes hard to express between conscious thoughts of suicide and, as you say, the longing to just go, and keep on going, and escape....
And I'll go with you on not being too generous to the PTB about continuity screwups. :-)
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And thanks for the rec on your LJ. :)
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Any time. (I actually only rec'ed part 10 as that was the only part I had read until last night.)=)
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It's amazing; no matter how many times i've watched it, i sob at the look on Daniel's face in the morgue as the aide pulls the sheet back over her face, and i sob the second time he wakes up in the infirmary and she's THERE. touching him, talking to him. omg.
i wish we had had more of her. she is so real and vita in this episode, just jumps off the screen. i tend to think of the sha're of the movie, not the sha're of the series in my head, but the actress in the series was excellent. sigh. meep.
so yeah.
watching it today, the vision nature of the episode is very evident in the lighting. the sgc is very dim; not like in normal canon. it's very subtle, but it's different.
i am still in awe of the way this episode was constructed and shot. i don't really see a mistake anywhere. the POV stuff is intentionally changing; you can't assume it's part of the vision only when the camera is Daniel's Eyes. It's gorgeous how the whole ep sets us up slowly for that surreal moment when daniel opens the door of his bedroom and it opens on the planet where they found amanuet. stunning.
all the slo mo in the beginning is a hint that TIME is going to be WEIRD in this ep. and so it is.
thanks again for the careful discussion. *cheers*
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I never noticed the lighting, except when, as you say, Daniel opens the door in his apartment and finds himself back on the planet. The lighting leaps out at you there. And now I have another excuse to watch it again, whee!
I love Sha're for her strength and fire, yes. And it's there in the series, if you look for it, even without adding the complexities of the amazing Sha'uri from the movie.
Interesting look at the shifts in POV, that you see it more as intentional than mistaken. I can ignore those four moments because the rest of it so tightly focused. It's just... incredible.
I am enjoying your recent FIAD obsession, because it meshes so well with mine! :)
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Have you listened to the commentary for FIAD, or is there one on that season? *ponders*
now that i can watch canon with less of OMG DANIEL"S LIPS and OMG JACK"S HANDS distracting me, after two years, I am so sinking into these details....And also, I really think this episode was a huge milestone in Daniel's character. Who he became after Sha're's death.... so much to ponder there....
Thanks for being here.
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As for the discussion in Hammond's office with Jack, Daniel's walking toward them - he can see them through the glass. So it still does stay in Daniel's POV.
The only direct violation to POV is when Daniel leaves the Planet of Purple Peonies. We see him disappear into the active event horizon, and Jack and Sam come running up - "Where'd he go?"
Like you, I have a special fondness for blurred concussed camera vision. :) And that's a lovely bit of insight - that after the slowed time of the teaser, we start in Daniel's head. I like that a lot.
No commentary, alas, for FIAD. I did splurge for the complete boxed set - I didn't have any complete seasons - but if they'd added new commentary for the first three seasons? You can bet a lot more people would've bought it!
LOL at your distractions! See, there's an advantage to gen glasses... :) And this is a huge milestone, albeit one that I could strongly argue wasn't necessary to advance Daniel. He would've needed a new quest if Sha're had been saved, too, harcesis child or no. Did you read Meredith's intensely powerful If I Could Go On Sleeping? It's a rewrite of Meridian with Sha're there, with enough backstory hints to make it clear that the next two seasons could've worked just as well if she'd lived. Great relationship with the rest of the team and Janet, and with FIAD at the back of your mind, the last line will absolutely break you. Really.
(Be aware that ff.net recently did away, for some odd reason, with all scene breaks (such as three asterisks or what have you) on the site. So the story flows from one scene to the next without any hint that there's supposed to be a scene change. This is annoying, but I assure you the story is worth it.)
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I am not thinking of the scene where daniel comes in to find hammond and jack arguing about rothman. i'm thinking of the scene where daniel comes in to offer hammond his resignation letter and hammond tells him he won't accept it and he needs to take some time off.... that scene starts with hammond alone and daniel walks into the frame, if i'm remembering right.... but yeah....i do believe the pov stuff was intentional.... i need to watch it again when i'm ready to cry again....
i agree that daniel would have found a way to keep going through the gate, sha're or no sha're, and that he very well might have had to go with oma in meridian if sha're had still been there. but clearly losing his wife would be a huge thing in anyone's life, is all i'm saying....
i love considering what would have happened if sha're had not been the one carried off by apophis; if she had gone with them to the cartouche room.... meep.....
thanks for the rec; will check it out.
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