Redialing Learning Curve: Jack and kids

[fignewton]

redial_the_gate does Learning Curve this week, with a delightful recap from kalquessa. There's lots of entertaining discussion going on at her post, so I'll just mention a few things that make me squee, and a couple of little niggling questions, before getting to what I really want to talk about.

What makes me squee!

Daniel with a smudged face, working with tools, all giddy with excitement with discovery, wearing his bandana. That alone gives this ep a 9.5, right there.

Sam's drawing skills. Her definition of fun. Falling asleep at her desk, because she's stayed up all night to learn about naquadah reactors. That's my Sam. :)

Teal'c and Tomin. I love how he's so heartbreakingly gentle with him.

Hammond rocks, naturally! So does Janet!

An honestly fair ethical dilemma, with a copout ending that's almost as bad as Red Sky, but much more forgivable just because Jack and Merrin are so cute. :)

Now for a question or three:

Why don't we see the Averium's positive results? Where's Kalan's knowledge of reactors? Why, after Tomin goes through the Averium, don't we see Kalan perfectly capable of discussing the Goa'uld with Teal'c himself?

And why can't they keep a thousand or so nanites within the Urrone kids' brains, so they don't lose the knowledge they learned? Maybe they can't download other Urrone children's knowledge, but why can't they keep their own?

Do you think Jack expected the outcome? Do you think he realized that teaching the concept of "fun" to Merrin would translate to teaching it to all of Orban? Did Merrin know herself?

And here's what I want to discuss:

Jack's affinity for children is a grand Stargate tradition, going all the way back to the movie where he bonded with Skaara. The angsty poignancy of seeing how good he is with kids and knowing he's lost Charlie turns this quirk from a cutesy one to a wrenching one that the writers don't hesitate to milk over and over again. Not that we mind, heh. There's Skaara in the pilot, Nefreyu in The Nox, Cassie (who won't talk to anyone but Jack when Sam gets Jonlinar'd), Charlie-the-Reetou, Laira's kid, and Nevin in Revisions. We never see Jack and Shifu interact in real time, except for Jack's endearingly bumbling attempts to translate Shifu's first statement when they arrive at the SGC. If you want, you can add his gentleness with Kynthia from Brief Candle, because despite her figure, she was certainly child-like in her emotional maturity and comprehension. Reece was an interesting exception, and as Aelfgyfu writes so eloquently in her A Time for Killing/...and a Time for Healing fics, I don't think Jack allowed himself to see Reece-the-child at all, because he needed to see her as machinelike robot in order to stay objective enough to deal with her if necessary. He's also rather lousy at dealing with himself in Fragile Balance, but really, Jack has never been good with alternate selves. :)

So here in Learning Curve, we have Jack bonding with Merrin (love the rocket scientist discussion, and how he deflects the age question!) and a lovely rapport with the local schoolkids. But I'm fascinated by how Jack reacts so very differently to the Urrone children than the rest of the team.

Sam (and Hammond!) and Merrin. After the initial surprise at the identification of the naquadah reactor expert, Hammond treats Merrin with the same formal courtesy he would give any visitor to the SGC. And Sam - Sam is marvelous. She clearly remembers that Merrin in a child - her discussions of anything outside the reactor are on a young level, and she's unembarrassed of her stick figures - but within Merrin's area of expertise, Sam treats her as an equal, or moreso.

Teal'c and Tomin. I love how Teal'c, after that first startled blink, converses with Tomin with grave courtesy and intelligence, without the slightest condenscension or hint of patronizing. It makes the revelation of Tomin's regression so much more heartbreaking. (As I mentioned in my comments at the recap, I found Tomin's situation much more poignant than Merrin's.) There is still a hint of protectiveness, I think - consider Teal'c's almost threatening manner when he insists on seeing Tomin - but Teal'c interacts with Tomin at the adult level he deserves.

Daniel. Oh, I adore Daniel, who has no initial problem with the concept of apprentices in the first place (all pre-serise fanon aside, I do think Daniel went on at least one dig or two with his parents, and probably saw plenty of children doing work without finding it odd or exploitive, and Abydos certainly put its kids to work). Daniel, who in his squee at archeological discovery doesn't even blink twice at discussing it on an adult level with the Urrone kids. Daniel, who may hate what's happening to the kids, but grants them the right to make their own decisions.

::clears throat:: Er. I have never, ever pretended to be even remotely objective about Daniel. Just so you all know...

Now, Jack. I don't know if it's because he doesn't interact with the children on a formal level - he's the guy in charge of the experts in this ep, not an expert himself (although why aren't the Orbanians interested in Tau'ri warfare methods?). But we never, not once, see Jack treating Merrin or any of the others as an equal.

The contrast between Jack's reactions and the rest of the team's fascinates me. This isn't new for Jack - back in the movie, he nearly bit Skaara's head off when he first tried to touch a gun, and later, when Kawalsky and Ferretti suggested that Skaara and the boys could help, Jack furiously ordered them all to go home. That has its roots in Charlie, of course. But here in Learning Curve, as in Show and Tell, it's clear that Jack has great difficulty with disassociating a child's body with the consciousness within.

So, putting aside the a-little-too-good-to-be-true ending, who had the right attitude here? The team, or Jack? Do you see as Jack being patronizing of people who deserve better, or Jack as being the only one to reach to the lost child within each Urrone?

And again, as I write this, I circle back to his grim, almost cold treatment of Reece, where he did make the distinction between a child's body and emotions, and the danger that she represented to Earth and the SGC. Did the stark difficulty of forcing himself to shoot what looked like a little girl contribute to the aching pain of that final scene between Jack and Daniel?

(On a completely different and almost facetious tangent, writing this meta makes me wonder, for the first time, how Hammond et al really would treat a young "aware" version of Daniel - the one that appears in so many kidfics. I'd like to think that George would continue to call him "Dr. Jackson," and that the rest of the SGC, after getting over their initial reactions, would follow Hammond's lead and continue to give him the courtesy his intelligence and expertise deserves... but that Jack would have a lot of trouble seeing beyond the outer appearance to the adult mind within.)

I welcome everyone's thoughts. :)

ETA: Thanks, suzannemarie, for pointing out that I'd forgotten Loren from The Light. The boy was an incredible actor, too - the scene where he finally breaks down and tells Jack the truth about his parents is nothing short of amazing.

Also? I'm going to post and then not get back to my computer for twenty hours more often. Because you people had a lot of fun while I was gone. :)

ETA2: And Redbyrd points out that Jack, when he's not worried about Goa'uld cyanide-laced teeth, is pretty friendly to Ry'ac, too. No dog, but a baseball glove as compensation!

Comments

[kalquessa.livejournal.com]

Daniel with a smudged face, working with tools, all giddy with excitement with discovery, wearing his bandana. That alone gives this ep a 9.5, right there.

Yes.

who had the right attitude here? The team, or Jack?

Can we have both? I think we need both. In real life as well as in the microcosm of the show. I know I try to treat kids as much like equals as I can because I always appreciated adults who did the same for me, when I was a kid. But I think there's a reason most of us react to children the way we do (the way Jack does) and a reason why we feel an urge to protect them.

[pepper-field.livejournal.com]

I've discussed Jack's attitude towards kids before with... someone... and came to the conclusion that he sets a clear distinction between A Child and An Adult. He gets mightily pissed off with adults who he feels are not looking after their children, and he is inclined to give children the benefit of the doubt as to their motives, no matter how much they might be alien-influenced, not really little kids in their own culture, etc.

When I was a kid, I think I preferred to be treated like an adult, the way the others do. But, there's something wonderfully reassuring about the way Jack is with kids, which makes me believe the whole bond thing he has with them.

I'm trying to remember if he does have a cutoff point for when someone changes from child to adult, or if that's just in my personal canon. He treats older kids (Skaara, Cassie) with a certain amount of responsibility, I think - although I haven't located an example of that (I had a look at Rite of Passage, and there's nothing really there).

As to which attitude is right... Well, I think the combination worked, as it usually does with SG-1 (that's the joy of fiction, of course). Jack insisted on teaching Merrin to be a kid, and the others understood better that she had to go back. In a real situation, it would all be much more complicated, but I'm still not sure which I find 'right'. I can sympathise with Jack's determination to convince Merrin that she shouldn't be sacrificed this way, but I do think he's quite blind to how other alien cultures do things. I'm very much not a fan of applying ones own cultural norms to everyone. But this could be seen as Jack having the strength of mind to go with what he feels is morally right, and damn the culturally-sensitive waffling.

So, I have no conclusions, really. :)

[katie-m.livejournal.com]

I'm very much not a fan of applying ones own cultural norms to everyone. But this could be seen as Jack having the strength of mind to go with what he feels is morally right, and damn the culturally-sensitive waffling.

Yeah, I find it difficult to care about cultural sensitivity when dealing with a situation which is, essentially, "raise children to the age of ten or so and then make them, essentially, vegetables for the rest of their lives." Once you get to the end and everyone's on board with the concept of actually teaching these kids something, so that they can get a life back, I can work with cultural sensitivity, but up until then... I mean, honor or no honor, before they decide that they can teach the Urrone they're essentially killing them.

[pepper-field.livejournal.com]

Yeah. And the 'these people are useless, lock them away' isn't that far from practices within living memory on this planet, sadly. I find it bizarre that they don't teach the Urrone. I mean, they turn them into infants - they don't take away their ability to learn. For a people who claim to care about their kids, it's odd - particularly given that the nanites thing is supposed to be fairly new. But hey-ho, I don't think the scriptwriters thought that one through completely, personally. :)

I'm not sure Jack thinks it through that logically, though. He seems to me more focused on saving Merrin than finding a way of getting the Orbanians to stop what they're doing.

[suzannemarie.livejournal.com]

I'll add one more kid to the discussion: Lorne from The Light. I think that was his name wasn't? In that one, Jack was a lot sterner and a lot less gentle until the end. Lorne is older of course, but the situation was also a little different. There was the case where, I think where Lorne needed someone to be (for lack of a better word) a parent. Someone that wasn't just going to let him off the hook or try to be his pal. In a way, as upsetting as it was to Lorne I think it also gave him some security. (I will undoubtedly talk at great length about this when we reach that episode.)

Anyway, all of that is prelude to say that I think Jack does relate to kids in an adult to child way. But I think he does it in an easy way and in way that's sort of tailored to the child. With Merrin he's fairly gentle and protective. With Cassie, I think he's more like a pal--an uncle maybe; after all, she has a parental figure. With Lorne he's a little gruffer and sterner. Though after the breakthrough with information, Jack becomes much more accessible.

All of the above maybe reflects two things. One, he's been a parent. I suspect--though I can't say from experience--that once you've had children of your own, you look at them differently. I suspect becoming a parent is one of the things that makes you feel like an adult. Two, Jack is accustomed to being in charge. It's his responsibility to look out for his team and anyone under their protection. I theorize that his way of relating to kids is an extension of that--that final responsibility usually rests with him.

[aelfgyfu_mead]

OMG! You mentioned my stories and gave links! I love you!

Uh, what were we talking about?

Oh, right! I see Jack as totally being a parent. He never quite turned it off. When my daughter is eleven, no way in heck I would countenance her making a decision to allow herself to be used as Merrin does. Even geniuses don't have the experience and emotional maturity of adults (though the Urrone adults seem to be curiously lacking in those things). Now that I'm a parent, I treat other kids that way too, because I've got a far more intimate understanding of what children are like. (I remember being a really rational child. This does not fit my parents' recollections too well.) I would have a hard time stomaching what Merrin does--oh, wait, I do have a hard time stomaching what Merrin does. (I think I shed real tears during this episode. I won't call the ending a cheat, though--maybe just because I'm happy at the result, but I'd like to think that it's because I find the ending as plausible as the premise.)

Sam and Daniel aren't parents. Teal'c is a parent but was often away during R'yac's younger years--or maybe he can just turn the parenting thing off. I can't.

Did the stark difficulty of forcing himself to shoot what looked like a little girl contribute to the aching pain of that final scene between Jack and Daniel?
Absolutely! I've always thought so. I think he's in firm denial that she's a child--which meant that it occurred to him, but he repressed it. Very different from never thinking the thought in the first place. (Daniel made him think it, which leads to some of the anger at Daniel. I mean really, saying he wants to throw Daniel into walls for things he says? He's displacing anger all over the place: anger at Daniel for arguing for Reese, anger at Reese, anger that someone ever made this mess for them.)
We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of "Learning Curve."

[supplyship.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, like Kalquessa, I'm not sure there is a right or wrong attitude here. I also don't think that we can simplify it to "everyone treats the children as equals except Jack".

I really don't see Jack as acting condescendingly towards children. Certainly *they* don't ever feel that way, or they wouldn't be drawn to him like they are time and time again. He is usually very gentle with them, playful with them, and always protective of them.

As weird as it seems, Jack is the most balanced member of SG-1. Or at least he's the one who best understands the importance of a balanced life - of seriousness and of play, and of "the big picture". Jack is definitely an expert on seeing the big picture, where Sam and Daniel (and even Teal'c - Jaffa Revenge, anyone?) often get too focused on one small part. So if he switches into a teacher/student role with Merrin, it's not a surprise. He sees an imbalance in her mindset, and tries to show her other aspects of life. Like having fun! :D But I don't think that he treats her like she's inferior. More casually, yes. More emotionally, yes. Inferior? No.

Jack has so much baggage and crushing responsibility that it's kind of amazing that he's still functional. It's why he's always over-compensating with a joke or sarcasm. Sometimes it's annoying (well, not to me), and sometimes it's foolish, but if it works for him, if it keeps him functional, then more power to him. And I think his interactions with children also helps keep him going... soothes his soul, so to speak. Maybe he's looking for forgiveness for Charlie. Maybe in them he sees hope, sees less-complicated times. Maybe he just feels like that crushing responsibility is going to come all too soon for these kids, so why push it along even faster?

Also, when we examine the instances where Jack interacts with children, I don't think we can take Reece into account. Mostly because Jack sees her as a machine only. Never a child. Not Fifth, or RepliCarter or any of the "human form" Replicators.

[night-spear1287.livejournal.com]

With regards to the kids, that's an interesting conundrum. I think the idea of the Urrone was just wrong; I don't think of myself as an emotional person, but I'd definitely not have been one of the people who thought it was a cultural practice to be respected. Maybe where each person draws that uncrossable boundary is personal, but to me, that crosses a line or two. I think that's likely true of all the team to some extent; however, Daniel, Sam, and Teal'c see the thing about working children as acceptable (for reasons of culture, ability, technological or educational benefit, or other considerations), if not necessarily agreeable. Also, I seem to remember that Daniel, at least, seemed to think of the kids helping him with archaeology as something like students, rather than as experts, like Merrin. And they were getting naquadah generator technology out of the girl, so a lot might be excused for something like that. I think it's more straightforward for Jack. Using kids is bad, period.

In some ways, what it comes down to is the question of whether the children's choice and their pride to be Urrone should be respected first and foremost, or if they should be considered victims of brainwashing by the adults who exploit them or perhaps too young and inexperienced to make an informed decision. Now, that's a tricky one, and I'm fairly sure you could make really good arguments for either side without either being truly right.

For myself, I think I'd have agreed with Jack in thoughts but probably agreed with the others in actions. I don't think any of them is exactly "right" or "wrong," though. It's a question I'm fighting with a lot in my kid!fic AU, and it *is* more complicated than it seems, and certainly with Jack.

Short answer, I don't really know :)

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

The thing with Reese to me is that Jack doesn't see her as a child and that makes perfect sense for his character. He has a very strong division in his head between "people" and "not people" and "people" are first a foremost the Taur'i, then other humans in the galaxy (unless they are shooting at him or his), then other aliens who are allies (and only grudgingly) but he's very suspicious of non-biological life forms. For him Reese was a machine. Period.

So, yes, Jack is all about protecting children, but how he reacts to Reese fits his character well.

It is cool the different ways the team treats the kids though - different experiences and all.

[randomfreshink.livejournal.com]

I agree with this -- I don't think Jack's snippiness at the end of Menace comes from having to shoot a "girl-like" robot. It's a machine to him, and that's that. But I do think he's pissed that Daniel doesn't see it that way, that Daniel almost got killed, and Daniel is damn ungratful to Jack for shooting that machine. Might as well rub two sticks togehter there.

[randomfreshink.livejournal.com]

Personally, I'm with Daniel on this one. Merrin had the right to make her own decision about this. I actually think having some arbitrary age at which one is 'legally' able to make decisions isn't practical. Some folks can make decisions at a young age--some you really wish that, even if they are 30, they had a keeper.

It would be different if this was forced on the kids. But it's clearly her choice to make.

I'm not sure Jack thinks about her 'passing along' what she knows, though. I think he just wants her to experience being 'a kid' even if it's for just a day (and even if it's his idea of what a kid is).

I do think it's interesting that Hammond's argument is that SGC doesn't have a right to interfer with another planet's policies--he takes the bigger view. And I actually think Daniel is swayed, too, by these people's need to work on a defense against the Goa'uld.

As to the ending, that never really bothered me. Memory -- and how it's mapped -- is a facinating thing, and very tricky. To me it makes sense that some things really would stick, others wouldn't. Of course, I don't think the science here takes much scrutiny, but it still gave me a good enough story arc. And I liked that it gave Jack a chance to try again--that's so much of what SG-1 does. It's their ability to keep at something.

[green-grrl.livejournal.com]

Daniel doing archeology = SQUEEE!!!

Also, I loved the *blink blink what?* moment for Jack when he insists that Carter and Merrin have fun, and Carter explains that science is fun. Hee!

Jack's actually sweet with any kind of underdog--the homeless guy he gave magazines to, the vet who was seeing the "invisible" creatures. His protective streak knows no bounds! ;-) But I don't think Jack had any clue of the impact his teaching Merrin "fun" would have. He just absolutely believes, as supplyship said, that life should be balanced. And even the most precocious of kids do enjoy some fun. They just want Daniel- or Sam-type time, too.

Sidetrack: He's also rather lousy at dealing with himself in Fragile Balance, but really, Jack has never been good with alternate selves.

Actually, after loads of fanon in fics about how Jack brushes off the clone, when I rewatched I found him to be kind of "soft touch for the kid" in attitude. As if he wasn't really seeing "himself," but more the teen shell. Though if they spent more time together, I think the whole "discomfort with doubles" would have come out more, and clone!Jack would definitely have brought the abrasive. I think if Jack were faced with Dr. Jackson in a kid!Daniel body, it would be similar--an immediate emotional reaction to the appearance, and after a few very grownup conversations and perhaps a few pissy!Daniel fights, back to normal.

Anyhoo ... I have to admit that I'm uncomfortable when Daniel advocates for Merrin going back knowing that she will be turned into a vegetable. I think there's a slippery slope, and I'm all for him recognizing that kids in other cultures "work" and that's fine (well, as long as it isn't 18 hours in a coal mine or something). Sam and Merrin enjoying science? Cool. But mind-wiped? That's pretty damned extreme. :-(

[pepper-field.livejournal.com]

Also, when we examine the instances where Jack interacts with children, I don't think we can take Reece into account. Mostly because Jack sees her as a machine only. Never a child. Not Fifth, or RepliCarter or any of the "human form" Replicators.

For that matter, I think he's got the same attitude when he's turned into a machine, in Tin Man. He gets it first that they're no longer people, and can't expect to be treated as such; he seems to have complete disregard for his own mechanised flesh, too. Of course, he assumes then that his consciousness has been transferred - the revelation that he is entirely manufactured, including his awareness, is a big shock. I wonder if Tin Man Jack would have had a different attitude towards Reece - 'our' Jack, of course, never had that experience.

I think he's very quick at categorising - this is a threat, this is a child, this is irrelevant...

[pepper-field.livejournal.com]

Actually, after loads of fanon in fics about how Jack brushes off the clone, when I rewatched I found him to be kind of "soft touch for the kid" in attitude.

In support of this, he does say to Thor, "He's just a kid," to argue for why they ought to help him.

[lilyleia78]

Excuse me while I butt in to your conversation...

I think that's a very interesting point - Jack is focused on saving Merrin and not necessarily in changing the whole system. Which is interesting to his state of mind unless he really did suspect/plan the eventual outcome he got.

As opposed to Daniel, who is distressed and appalled, but can see the bigger picture (it's so Daniel to realize that he's fighting a losing battle (he can't stop them from using the nanites) and that his efforts on Merrin's behalf are a) unwanted, and b) may fatally halt this culture's development if he's successful.) from kalquessa on redial_the_gate's recap

[lilyleia78]

I have to admit that I'm uncomfortable when Daniel advocates for Merrin going back knowing that she will be turned into a vegetable.

Having recently rewatched "Beast of Burden" I also find this a strange contridiction in his attitude. Although he never directly tried to change their whole lifestyle, I suspect he cared about freeing Chaka to the exclusion of all else. (Jack, not so much) But here he's willing to sacrifice a little girl for the greater good...

I'll just chalk it up to the writers needing Jack to be alone on this one.

[pepper-field.livejournal.com]

My feeling (based on no specific evidence) is that Jack wanted to show Merrin her options, and damn the consequences to his own career. I think it was serendipity, rather than strategy, that the stuff he showed Merrin was then filtered into the Orban society as a whole. But that's just my take on it.

I think Jack does that - he's more focused on individuals than abstract society. And like you say, Daniel is more aware of the needs of the many.

On the other hand, sometimes they swap: Daniel can be very focused on saving one individual, on righting one wrong, even though the impact on a society might be huge - if he feels the impact will ultimately be worth it. Whereas Jack sometimes reacts as though rocking the boat isn't worth risking his team. Or (more in earlier years), if the result isn't going to be worth it for the SGC.

I'm trying to think of examples to back all this meandering up, but I'm at work so can't flick through my DVDs. :)

[pepper-field.livejournal.com]

I dunno, I can see Daniel mentally weighing these things up: Merrin - willing sacrifice; important to her people that she went through the Averium; culturally accepted. Chaka - important to his people that he lives; important to Daniel as a friend; his death will accomplish nothing.

Whereas for Jack, it probably looked like: Merrin - had no chance to see other choices; information she'll provide to her people isn't of that much worth compared to her life. Chaka - trying to rescue him is too risky to his team; Unas society is all very nice but they're not really useful allies.

[lilyleia78]

That's a good point (about showing options) and I think you're right. When he's done, he does keep his promise and lets her go. And it's not like he looks all thrilled that his grand scheme worked at the end.

I comment later in the thread about the role reversal in 'Beast of Burden' where Daniel is focused on rescuing Chaka to the detriment of all else, but Jack is concerned about changing the society, and the safety of all the humans. So, there's one example for you. Darn work keeping you from the important research ;)

[lilyleia78]

Good points. I can see that. Of course, even before the threat of death Daniel's concern was more about Chaka than anything else.

In continued support of your point, I'm struck by Jack's fear of hurting any humans to save Chaka. Because he doesn't really know Chaka and that changes his priorities. It seems to go along with someone's earlier point about Jack putting Tauri first, humans next, and then useful aliens.

[green-grrl.livejournal.com]

I do feel like there's a smidge of writerly convenience about it. I mean, Daniel looks somber, but he's not as reluctant as you'd think he would be about a child losing her brain.

[green-grrl.livejournal.com]

Yeah, with that melty-around-the-edges thing he does around kids. *pets* Not really seeing the cranky old guy inside!

[suzannemarie.livejournal.com]

I think there's more than a little bit of pragmatism at work with Jack's initial no casualties stance. When he and Daniel are first wrestling with the issue of Chaka and the other Unas, Jack acknowledges that he doesn't think the situation is right. But he makes, I think, a reasonable point when he says that to make the changes that Daniel's advocating is going to involve bringing in an entire army and policing and nation-building. I think he's rightly wary of the real and serious longterm implications of such course of action. I'm not sure that Daniel ever does entirely recognize that. Even at the very end of the episode, I think Daniel takes a much sanguine view of what's going to happen next than Jack does.

On a more intimate level, there's a point during their imprisonment when it becomes very obvious to Jack that these Unas are thinking, feeling, sentient bipeds. At that point, it becomes much harder not to act in their support. I might add that I think the same holds true for Daniel. He's initially only interested in freeing Chaka. To him, the other Unas are a different thing altogether. The Unas as a whole aren't on his radar until Chaka forces him to look at them differently.

[pepper-field.livejournal.com]

Dawww! He's so cute. :)

[pepper-field.livejournal.com]

And it's not like he looks all thrilled that his grand scheme worked at the end.

True. And I don't think Jack would ever consider a plan that began, "Let this kid have her brain wiped, and..."

*shakes fist at work* (Although clearly I'm not working that hard. *g*)