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I have some basic problems with the construction of the backstory for the episode The Road Not Taken. Analyzing the clues we're given leaves us with some pretty interesting contradictions in the storyline.
So, the AU from The Road Not Taken. It’s a fascinating premise, but there seem to be some major flaws in the flow of cause and effect.
I’m sure I’m not the only person who noticed that Jack O’Neill was not only absent as Mrs. Carter, but absent, period. Given the time frame of where this universe splits off from the regular SG-1verse, it’s reasonable to speculate that when Jack saved the world from Anubis in The Lost City, they never managed to defrost him. After all, they lost the
What repercussions does this have for the history of the next three years, then?
Lorne mentions that Teal’c left “several years ago” – probably at that time, when it was clear that there would be no rescue of Jack. And with no rescue attempt, that would also mean that Jack’s weapon against the Replicator was never created; that there was no way to save the Asgard from being overwhelmed when the Replicators broke loose; and that RepliCarter never came into being.
So. Weir out of the SGC, and Hammond back in his place. No General Jack. Sam doesn’t get her promotion to colonel. Quite frankly, that bothers me a lot, because the clear implication is that she hadn’t earned it as much as Jack had bestowed it, which is an ugly premise on both shippy and non-shippy levels. Daniel and Sam remain on SG-1, but Teal’c goes to fight the good fight with the
ETA: Both
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abyssinia4077 and aurora_novarum pointed out that without the need to go to Atlantis, Prometheus Unbound couldn't have happened as it did in our universe. I would add that while Vala might have still tried to hijack a Tau'ri ship for her own interests, it couldn't be the Prometheus, since it was doing Earth orbit duty as Air Force One, and that it wouldn't have been Hammond or Daniel on board, since Hammond was CO of the SGC and Daniel would not be required to employ his Ancient skills. So there's no Vala confronting Daniel to set off S9, although they might have met in other ways, and there's no reason to suggest that they couldn't have done so. No Moebius, because without Jack and his genes, they never would have been able to handle the timeship. (I know there are other Ancient-gene people out there, but I can’t see anyone other than Jack allowing SG-1 to go on such a dangerous mission to the past in the first place.)
It’s probable that the Replicators wiped out the Goa’uld just as they did in our universe, but how were the Replicators destroyed? No Replicarter. No Ancient weapon of Jack’s devising that they can use as a basis to finetune the machine at Dakara to destroy the Replicators. Would
We know this AU discovered the Ancient cache, because we see their machine, and they refer to where they found it. Without Citizen Joe, though, they don’t know how to activate it.
Here I run into a problem. They tell Sam that Vala is imprisoned in Area 51 (which, I’m afraid, makes this AU a lot more intelligent than the folks in our SGC). Was she sent there before or after she led them to the Ancient cache? Did they zat her as soon as they met her and ransack her belongings for the tablet that Daniel deciphered? Whether or not Vala was involved, they did find the communication device… but they didn’t communicate.
So. No out-of-body trip to the Alteran galaxy. So how do the Ori discover the existence of humans in the Milky Way?
I think it was a huge mistake to make the Ori the bad guys here, because no communication with the Alteran galaxy means no Ori in the Milky Way, and no Vala means no Adria to take Daniel. (We might handwave it and say that Vala was only arrested in S10, not S9, but that’s rather doubtful, and still doesn’t explain how the Ori got to the Milky Way galaxy in the first place.)
It’s sensible to suggest that the big bad should’ve still been Anubis. With no Replicarter to snatch him, Daniel wouldn’t have died again. No Daniel to inspire Oma to get off her glowly little tentacles and do something about Anubis means that he was still around and still making trouble. Daniel could still have been gone – possibly taken by Anubis himself, who would be every bit as fascinated in Daniel-the-Descended as Adria is. Anubis could be bringing ships to attack Earth – he did it once before, after all. A lot of the contradictions would have been resolved… but then, the writers would have actually had to present the Goa’uld as a real threat, and that is apparently not allowed any longer.
Conclusion: the premise we were given in The Road Not Taken was highly intriguing, but poorly envisioned by the writers. And for some odd reason, I’m not all that surprised by that. ;)
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I've been thinking a lot about this since I started writing my ep tag - and got confused and waited to see more canon...and got more confused.
I guess, they left enough holes that we could come up with a lot of theories for how it all worked?
Though...no Atlantis also means no "Prometheus Unbound" so how did they meet Vala?
"Ripple Effect," to me, implies there were ways the Ori could have found the galaxy without what we saw happening - without it being Daniels' fault. Maybe.
And it's possible they figured out the device without "Citizen Joe." Maybe. And without Atlantis - the Moebius ZPM hunt is less necessary.
Without Repli!Carter, would the replicators have come to the Milky Way? Attacked the Goa'uld? Maybe in this universe Daniel didn't ascend...so back in "Unnatural Selection" he swayed Jack to not betray Fifth where Sam couldn't so the replicator threat was never the same?
One of my theories is that, in becoming public, SG-1 was very visible and both worshipped and vilified - possibly took the fall when there were political uprisings - could explain Sam's lack of promotion. As for Kinsey - maybe he quit in this verse too, Hayes appointed Landry as his VP because he needed military help, Hayes got killed and Landry became president (I've been trying to figure out how he got the office)
*flails at AU some more*
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Okay, no Vala cause and effect anywhere. She's in Area 51 because some SG team ran afoul of her while she was still Qetesh and they brought her back to Earth so they could get intel from her after Qetesh was removed and they had no need to let her go. Or some SG team ran afoul of her when she tried to rob them, or something, and she got zatted and brought back to Earth, and so forth.
Explain how Ripple Effect implies that the Ori didn't need Daniel and Vala traipsing to the Alteran galaxy to discover the humans in the Milky Way? Because I really really hate that aspect of canon and would love to have some way to handwave it.
it's possible they figured out the device without "Citizen Joe." Maybe.
That's actually canon from the ep - they pull out a device of their own, but say they never figured out how to make it work. It's my own extrapolation that the reason why is that Jack is still a Jacksickle and there was never a confronation with Joe. Other explanations might be found, including the possibility that while Jack is still unfrozen, the police-state mentality means that when Joe turned up at Jack's house with a gun, the door was very much locked and Joe was instantly carted off. Of course, this Joe would have lots of proof for his wife, since the SGC would have gone public, and... Going in circles again. :)
The Replicators are already in the Milky Way by the end of S3. And Menace tells us that they started in the Milky Way. But even without Replicarter, there's still Fifth et al... unless, as you suggest, the Daniel of that universe never ascended. Which, erm, means that Jack and Teal'c and Bra'tac are all dead. Not quite sure about Abydos.
One of my theories is that, in becoming public, SG-1 was very visible and both worshipped and vilified - possibly took the fall when there were political uprisings - could explain Sam's lack of promotion.
Oh, thank you! That's a much more realistic and decent explanation than my uncomfortable thoughts about Jack promoting Sam. And that might explain Teal'c's departure, even if Jack did get defrosted - he's shol'va out there, why should he put up with being "shol'va" on Earth, too?
I'm wondering more and more about the ascension thing, because personally, if their Daniel did die at the end of S8, the Earth would have become a place where he probably wouldn't want to go. And I can't see any Daniel Jackson not protesting loudly and continuously at the breach of so many personal liberties. And that makes me wonder if Daniel wasn't captured, but possibly deliberately handed over to the Ori, just to get rid of his voice of protest... But that may be darker than you want to go.
I'm pretty sure Kinsey was president in the AU of Moebius and Hayes was Secretary of State, or something. Like canon history, you ought to be free to change political history to suit your needs for your ep tag.
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There was no "Prometheus Unbound", so did Vala get caught trying to get the treasure on Earth from her tablets? I don't think she had to steal Prometheus to end up on Earth or run into a team offworld.
You've already mentioned the major plot hole of trying to figure out how the Ori got here/found out about the Milky Way anyhow.
Maybe in this universe Fifth didn't escape or he and the Replicators are still going at it. It sure doesn't seem like this AU spends time with the Asgard.
I just figure they defeated the Goa'uld their own way (or maybe they didn't, and the Ori are taking care of that problem).
You've also pointed out with Vala in Area 51, there's likely no Adria.
Well there's another BIG issue. Since Lee specifically stated they didn't know what that device was, that means Daniel never translated it, they never started searching for the Sangreal...so WHY did the Ori capture him? What intelligence purpose did it serve? I think Alt-Daniel is a dead duck. :-(
Someone else pointed out Sam doesn't have any scar from that Ori weapon blast when she's wearing that pretty dress...maybe that fits into your odd wanking that this ep takes place before, LOL.
No Weir, no Kinsey I had no problem with. No Jack. I think I agree, he never got out of the chair.
I don't think Moebius needed to happen. Without using the ZPM to go to Atlantis and other things, they may not have used up the power as much (maybe they didn't use as many glowy bombs on Anubis either).
I did like the Mitchell continuity though. I thought that was Browder's best acting, even if had to do it wearing that awful Citizen Joe/Moebius wig.
I wouldn't worry so much about Daniel's second ascension. I really think after Lost City the whole thing skewed funny (and had some differences before hand) and their S8, S9, and S10 happened totally differently. It's just the things they kept as THE SAME (like the Ori) in this universe that gives a WTF?
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You could probably come up with all sorts of ideas for your fic. Landry was elected. Kinsey was never VP, Landry was and Hayes was killed in the attack.
Good luck with the fic!
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It sure doesn't seem like this AU spends time with the Asgard.
Well, as I suggested, the Asgard might have been wiped out without Jack's anti-Replicator weapon. Even if they're not completely destroyed, they're probably much too busy cleaning their own house to help the Tau'ri... and honestly, would they still call this Earth's Tau'ri the potential Fifth Race?
I just figure they defeated the Goa'uld their own way (or maybe they didn't, and the Ori are taking care of that problem).
Good suggestion, that! The Ori came crashing in and wiped out the Goa'uld, which would make them even more likely to be worshipped. Ouch.
WHY did the Ori capture him? What intelligence purpose did it serve? I think Alt-Daniel is a dead duck.
I am perfectly willing to believe that when Lorne told Sam that Daniel had been taken by the Ori, he was repeating what he'd been told, possibly by Landry's order, and that Daniel is imprisoned/killed/handed over to the Ori for dissection purposes as a former Ascendant because he argued too much about the police-state policies.
I agree that Mitchell was fantastic. The wig, though, must be retired! :)
really think after Lost City the whole thing skewed funny (and had some differences before hand) and their S8, S9, and S10 happened totally differently. It's just the things they kept as THE SAME (like the Ori) in this universe
Exactly! It was a huge mistake to try and make their AU have a history similar to ours. I think they simply didn't follow the logic of what the changes they made would mean for subsequent events.
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Um, it came up in the RE discussion over at my journal - someone's interp that one of the teams at least implied that - I don't remember details. But I could believe there were other possible ways for the Ori to learn about the galaxy.
they pull out a device of their own, but say they never figured out how to make it work.
Ah. I didn't catch that when I watched because I hadn't seen the device before. As for Joe - yes with the program public and police state and everything - I could so believe no confrontation (also, in the canon I'm developing, Jack retires after Anubis's attack...so he wouldn't be near the stone anymore).
Daniel of that universe never ascended. Which, erm, means that Jack and Teal'c and Bra'tac are all dead
It's possible they could have survived other ways, with Daniel alive and having other impacts - also he didn't entirely make them survive - just increased the odds. As for the replicators - they've generally seemed less focused on the Milky Way until Fifth (SGA replicator canon DRIVES ME NUTS because they find human formed replicators created by the Ancients and I can't figure out if that's supposed to counteract Reece or not)
And I can't see any Daniel Jackson not protesting loudly and continuously at the breach of so many personal liberties. And that makes me wonder if Daniel wasn't captured, but possibly deliberately handed over to the Ori, just to get rid of his voice of protest... But that may be darker than you want to go.
Um...are you in my brain?
From the fic I'm working on:
As Jack led the man to the car and frisked him – apologizing for the need – he still couldn't believe he was doing all this. It hadn't been McKay who had convinced him, but Daniel. McKay's card had sat on the table, gathering dust and stains from gutted fish for over a month before the archaeologist had limped up to his door.
Jack opened the door to find Daniel, much too skinny, with an arm in a sling and an eye patch across his face. He wouldn't talk about what happened – just that he'd been sent on a mission that had gone horribly wrong and after two months had finally been rescued by Teal'c and some Jaffa. He came back to an SGC that appeared to no longer want him. Jack could fill in the blanks from the low priority of the rescue mission to the betrayal of an increasingly militaristic and isolationist SGC having no need for the anthropologist and linguist who was instrumental in creating it and increasingly out-spoken against its policies.
Definitely changing politics. I just...Landry feels to me like he doesn't want to be president - had it forced on him, so I was trying to find a way where it wasn't entirely his choice.
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(thanks! It's been stalled as I catch up on canon, but I still think it could be fun)
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Retired? It should be burned! In full Ori-like ceremony! Gak!
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Of course events can, er, eventuate differently. Maybe with Daniel around, some of those events wouldn't have happened. How do you explain Kelowna, though? Does Jacob heal him? Does Kelowna blow the day before SG-1 gates to the planet? Does Jonas sacrifice himself instead?
SGA replicator canon DRIVES ME NUTS
Huh? There are replicators in SGA? How did they get there?
The Replicators are most definitely in the Milky Way even before Fifth is created. They're shooting them on a Russian sub in the S4 opener, remember? And since Reece was in the Milky Way, they must have started there. I never saw the S6 Replicator ep, though, so I'm vague on some of the details.
Nope, not in your brain! But thanks to my lagging fic, very much in Daniel's. :) And hoo boy, yes, that snippet sounds good and creepy!
I don't agree with your take on Landry-the-patsy rather than Landry-the-opportunist, but if it works for you, go for it.
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It should be allowed to quietly retire to the Old Wig's Home, where it can chat with its fellow on the various advantages and disadvantages of hair dye and conditioner.
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*has no clue what you're talking about* :)
sure
Maybe they didn't go to Kelowna. Maybe Jacob healed him. Maybe Jonas sacrificed himself (I like this actually) maybe...who knows. All sorts of possibilities. Or maybe things didn't really change much (aside from Sam's love life) until after Anubis.
Huh? There are replicators in SGA? How did they get there?
The Ancients were losing the war against the Wraith so tried to design this new weapon - developed nanites and...let them evolve. They evolved to take on the form of their creators and had, written into their base code, lots of aggression (also rules against harming their creators). When the Ancients decided the experiment was a failure, they tried to destroy the replicators but a few pieces survived and over millenia, they rebuilt.
When SGA finds them, it's almost identical to SG-1's human-form replicator episode. They think they've found a lost colony of Ancients (who talk about having different philosophical opinions and to have cut themselves off - which now makes me wonder why SGA didn't worry they were Ori) and eventually discover they are replicators. One of them is leading a movement who wants to Ascend so they use his trust to get escape and blow them up...and create enemies.
They aren't identical to SG1 replicators in that they aren't all about consuming things...but yeah, not a good villian really.
Nope, not in your brain! But thanks to my lagging fic, very much in Daniel's. :) And hoo boy, yes, that snippet sounds good and creepy!
Ah, the scary place that is Daniel's head. The fic is definitely darker than most of my stuff - since a lot of the characters are pretty darn bitter. Daniel's very much in a dark place in his head - but we never get his PoV so never learn details of what happened to him. And I really need to get back to writing it.
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Okay, so the SGA Replicators are not SG-1 Replicators. They're just mechanical?
Hoo boy is Daniel's brain a scary place. Still love him, though. :)
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No. They're human form and look and act and such just like people and are part organic, part machine thing - really, just like human form SG-1 replicators only without the insatiable need to eat everything.
I always assumed that the Ancients had created all the unvierse's replicators and SG-1 never found out the origin - so when I saw "Menace" I got confused. SGA replicators are very upfront about how they were made.
Also, when SGA's team leaves Earth to re-take Atlantis they grab a bunch of "anti-replicator guns" that Carter supposedly made that are supposedly SG-1 canon but...yeah.
I'm not sure if they're supposed to be "identical but not" or not.
He's had a lot of people really mess with his head over the years It's bound to be scary. But yes with the love.
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But that's the definition of Replicators! They want to replicate! And Sam's "anti-replicator guns" are probably Jack's, which no longer work in the Milky Way because Sam left her brain at home the day that Replicarter came to visit in Gemini. But there's no reason they wouldn't work on Replicators in another galaxy, who presumably didn't get the Replicarter upgrade... but they're not Replicators, so they shouldn't work at all.
I suppose we're supposed to think that the Ancients and Reese just happened to create things that had the same essential building blocks, and were therefore equally vulnerable? Daniel would be displeased at the claim of divergent evolution! :)
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They were created to be very aggressive and with a driving purpose of destroying the Wraith (something they seem completely uninterested in doing). They've also developed a hatred for their creators (who tried to destroy them) and look at the humans/Tauri like jealous siblings because the Ancients loved the humans/Tauri best and tried to destroy the replicators.
It appears their main goal is to destroy Atlantis, once the SGA team admitted Atlantis still existed. But then they randomly decided to take it over instead (no clue why - they proved they could build a much cooler flying city).
The guns are...they actually remind me of the anti-super soldier guns. They're small and black and have these blue control crystal things and shoot EM waves that destroy the cohesion between cells, but they adjust after a few shots so you have to keep changing the frequency (like Star Trek borg and phasers).
They way they're introduced in SGA I assumed they were very familiar in SG-1 canon. not so.
See...I don't think Sam let her brain at home in Gemini. I totally get why she did what she did and find the episode fascinating. But that's another story.
Exactly with the supposed to think thing. *shakes fist at TPTB*
(honestly, while the replicator storyline has created some SGA episodes I really liked, I hate them as an enemy and plot device on SGA)
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You don't need Joe Spencer. It's canon that the SGC is crawling with the little paperweight thingies that fit into the device, and anybody with an Ancient Gene can activate one. Since the Ori Hookah has a lot of Little Paperweight Thingie holes on it, I'm sure Dr. Lee (who is an idiot) would have decided to drop one of the LPTs into it eventually, and probably *somebody* went to Oriville, because it really wouldn't matter who went. In fact, much better if they're disposable. *g*
This eliminates Joe Spencer, always good.
So. Jack. (And really Carter should have at least *asked*)
He's obviously dead-or-very-unavailable now, since Lorne is head of SG-1. And *somebody* has to have activated the Ancient Chair in Antarctica to drive of Anubis, but considering the extensive damage Anubis did to Earth, and the fact that this universe had to take the Program public, the implication is strong that however it happened, these people weren't as fast off the mark.
So I don't think it was Jack. I think it was John Sheppard.
I think Jack died in the *first* Ancient Download. I think he left them enough cryptic notes that they managed to riddle out a lot of stuff, including the existence of the Ancient Gene. I think the SGC located Sheppard and (handwave) managed to also locate the Outpost, but I think that Anubis had time to get in a lot more licks before Shep was able to take him out.
Vala undoubtedly hijacked Prometheus on one of its various shake-down cruises; it's reasonable for SG-1 (whatever its then-composition) to be tagging along. If she nabbed them during their attempt to locate Proclarush Taonas (for that matter), it could be especially poignant. A couple of years later Vala comes through the Gate, leads them to the Ancient cache (no bracelets, please, because these people are more paranoid than the other guys) and is, for her troubles, locked up in Area 51....
My thoughts.
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I don't think Sam let her brain at home in Gemini. I totally get why she did what she did and find the episode fascinating. But that's another story.
It's a story I'd very much like to hear, though. I know Sam has her blind spots and Replicarter was a doozy of one, but that doesn't help the absence of brain. I hope you'll write this up for us one day, because I know I'd like to read it!
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It is?
I only watched Joe once, but my impression was that it was rather unusual. If it had been so common, why would it have taken them so long to figure out what was happening, and why weren't there others having visons? I know that Asgard stones seems to be as common as marbles, but I really thought the LPTs (hee! great acronym) were rare.
Interesting hypothesis with Sheppard. Is he supposed to be more Ancient-y than Jack, or less? Although I would suggest that the bleakness of this AU would not encourage second chances, and the impression I got from the first 20 minutes of Atlantis Rising (the only SGA I've ever watched; I stopped as soon as the wormhole closed and Daniel and Jack weren't part of it any more) was that Sheppard was half a step away from being kicked out.
I think Jack died in the *first* Ancient Download.
Wow. So, no Asgard as friends, because he never made it to them. No meeting the Replicators at all. Who took the second download, then, that led them to Proklarush... Oh, I see your suggestion in your post: "Handwave." Silly me. :)
If Jack was dead, and the world was turning totalitarian, I vote for Daniel never descending. He would have little to come back to. The Tau'ri are turning into their own version of the Goa'uld, cute little symbiotes not required.
Vala, as you say, can be easily handwaved back into the story. Still, I think it was a huge mistake to change so much backstory and insist on the same current enemy.
Fun to speculate, though, isn't it? :)
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I haven't seen any of season 10, so I don't know that I can contribute all that much.
So. No out-of-body trip to the Alteran galaxy. So how do the Ori discover the existence of humans in the Milky Way?
Now this I have a partial theory for. In late season 9 where we get the Vala/Daniel bodyswap - Vala uses a communication device that the rebels have concealed in the Alteran galaxy. So it's possible that it wasn't someone from Earth who made the first connection in this AU.
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::considers::
Heh. For all its flaws, this ep is definitely providing us with lots of food for thought!
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*I* only watched "Joe" once (okay, except I watched the scene in Jack's kitchen a couple of times, because ... Jack's kitchen....) but the part about there being a lot of LPTs comes from "Avalon," I think. Or somewhere in S9. When they're firing up the Stupid Ori Hookah (hereafter the SOH.) The unusual part about the LPTs was the two-way connection, not their mere existence. I think.
I'm fairly sure that Sheppard is supposed to be Just As Ancient-y As Jack (no more, no less.) I barely watched "Rising" at all, but yeah. He was totally on the verge of being kicked out. In the AU, though, he'd obviously be "conserved" as a "national resource" no matter how much of a PITA he was.
Hm. While it's true that Daniel would have had damned little to come back to in a Jack-less universe, Descension wasn't exactly his call. OTOH, without Jack around, would he have been able to rally the SGC in the defense of Abydos? OTOOH, I'm sure he would *still* have done something to get himself kicked out of the Glowy Squid Club sooner or later.
But... yeah. I like my version, because "no Replicators" is another good reason for Anubis to be able to hit Earth so hard. Of course, it's also a better reason for Anubis to be the main villain in "Road Not Taken."
And the thing I *really* want to know is:
If they never found Atlantis in that universe...
If they've already beaten back Anubis using the Antarctic defenses...
Just *how* were they planning to smack down the Ori using those same defenses, since they USED UP ALL THE DRONES in defeating Anubis?
Just a question.
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I was thinking more in terms of his second Ascension - that he would choose to stay glowy - but you're right about the first one. OTOH, he would have probably stayed happily enough on Vis Uban, because who would have seriously looked for him? And I agree that the SGC would not have gone to help Abydos - if, of course, Anubis was after Abydos at all in that AU.
Just *how* were they planning to smack down the Ori using those same defenses, since they USED UP ALL THE DRONES in defeating Anubis?
Maybe there were still some drones yet? Or maybe they were just desperate?
Either way, the backstory wasn't thought through. Still! More fun for us. :)
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And I'm not surprised that the writers missed continuity flaws, etc. They really should have hired a staff of fans to do that work for them. ;)
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Yes! They should hire us for continuity! And we can make sure that all mention of Felger is erased from the writers' consciousness. :)
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Er.
Never Mind.