Stargate SG-1 1014 The Shroud

[fignewton]

To parphrase puppet!Hammond: “Not spoiling is much cooler than spoiling!” Whee! I commented as I watched, but went back and clarified in some spots.

 

I admit that there was one spoiler that was probably impossible to avoid: that Daniel was going to turn up as a Prior. I didn’t know if he was brainwashed, forced against his will, or what. For some odd reason, though, I expected it to be in the final minutes of the show, not in the opener of the episode. But I wasn’t spoiled for other details (Jack! Jack! JACK!!!) and this episode was… hm. Rushed? Not as ambiguous as I’d hoped? A bit too pat? Let’s see.

Once again, Mitchell sees nothing wrong with using cultural references to Earth in his discussions with the native planet. Getting into an argument on the subject with Vala amused me, yes; but expecting it to be an apt illustration of the subject on hand was stupid. I’m charmed by Mitchell’s fanboy memorization of all the SG-1 mission files, and his apparent familiarity with pop culture is just fine as a personality quirk. Using pop culture in conversation with off-worlders, though, just makes him look idiotic. I hope this trend won’t continue.

Did they really think we wouldn’t recognize Daniel’s voice immediately?

GYAH!! What did they do to my Daniel?? That make-up! The hair! The… eyelashes are pretty funny, actually. :) Also got a bit distracting after a while. Does Daniel have longer eyelashes than most men?

Liked Mitchell being distressed at having Daniel being so good at acting as a Prior. Liked the presentation of uncertainty – if this was Daniel, we wouldn’t be worried, but this is Daniel with Merlin included, and what if the ensuing mental confusion put Daniel down for the count? I would have liked for this to continue throughout the episode, but the level of uncertainty wasn’t maintained.

“Still, it’s Daniel.” Yeah. You tell ‘em, Sam!

Liked the careful selection of what Daniel read, and how very apt it was to his own situation. “Hey! What took you guys so long?” Oh, I laughed. So Daniel. And then Mitchell zatted him! Congratulations, Mitchell! Now you really are part of SG-1! It was the only thing missing.

Daniel, you sweet arrogant thing, you. “It’s all part of the plan.” Of course it is. Daniel comes up with a plan and expects everyone to fall instantly into line. I love it, because it is so Daniel. And didn’t we just discuss this quite thoroughly in last week’s canon vs. fanon? Utter confidence that they’ll listen to him; frustration that not everyone instantly knows that he’s right. And honest admission: “She was way too powerful for me.” Yep. That’s my Daniel. :)

I remember green_grrl commenting about this as vaguely as possible – the super-blue uniform that Adria dressed Daniel in (he is clearly her life-size Ken doll here) as being obviously designed by the Boys at Bridge to bring out Daniel’s cerulean blue eyes. However, to be fair, Tomin was wearing the same uniform in Line in the Sand. I’m not entirely willing to believe that they specifically designed the Ori uniforms for the sole purpose of matching Daniel’s eyes in the flashbacks. But I suppose you can never tell. ;)

It was interesting to watch Daniel talking with Adria, actually. Especially when he spoke about the Ancients. Because while I don’t believe that he was swallowing Adria’s version – it’s amazingly different from what they tell the rank and file, isn’t it? – Daniel isn’t very fond of the Ancients and their Rules™, and it probably wasn’t all that difficult for him to portray honest dislike for it.

I like the way that Daniel’s speech patterns changed when he was channeling Merlin – more formal, more precise. Less of that patented Daniel fine-tuned irritation. :)

All those candles. The Ori advocate kel’no’reeming?

Adria looks a lot prettier with her hair down and without the stupid neckpiece.

“Affecti-what?” Hee! Daniel. I love the pole-axed expression, so suitable for so many occasions! But AUUUUGGHHHH! (excuse me for that Charlie Brown moment) That was sick. I mean, honestly sick. Adria is what, six months old? Seven or eight, tops? And she chooses to kiss Daniel to priorize him. That is seriously disturbing, and the metaphor a decidedly uneasy one, especially with her dragging Vala into it. (besides, silly Orici, he was ever so much prettier before!)

Once again, may I say how much I adore the sheer arrogance of Daniel’s plan? “I’ll finish the weapon for her, but I won’t until she makes me a Prior, which she’ll do because she wants me to convert Earth, and then I’ll steal a ship and fly it through the Supergate, because of course everyone on Earth will trust me despite the circumstances and allow me to shut down the Supergate and practically hand over the only weapon we have to our worst enemy in the faith that I’ll actually turn the tables on her, never mind the possibility that I might have slipped a cog or three along the way.” Daniel needs to remember that planning black ops is not his thing. It is, however, most definitely his thing to be utterly confident that he can do exactly what he plans to do.

JACK!!!! Jack Jack Jack! I love how he just casually shows up in the briefing room, no fanfare. Daniel needs him and Jack comes running. Jack!

“Jack, you have to believe me!”

“Why?”

That first talk with Jack fascinated me, because it was so uneasy. I don’t believe Daniel honestly expected them to fall into that flawless rapport they’ve always had, because they haven’t worked together in way too long. It takes time to get that back, and Daniel seemed to want to jump right into their old, “Jack,” “Daniel,” routine – but without the closeness and intuitive understanding of each other. Maybe that’s why the reference to Ba’al rang so falsely for me. Of all the things to bring up, that one was seriously bizarre. It’s hardly a memory that Jack values; it’s sketchy if Daniel actually remembers it on his own, or if that might be Merlin doing the talking after doing a rummage around Daniel’s mind; and Jack might even argue that Daniel didn’t do very much at the time – certainly not what Jack wanted him to do at the time. A much, much better reference would have been the way that Daniel never left Jack’s side in The Fifth Race, when Jack suffered from a similar overwriting of his mind and Daniel never stopped believing in him. Or even to Spirits – “How do I know you’re you?” “Because.” “Yeah, okay.”

I keep saying this about these last episodes, and I think it’s a good thing – Daniel wriggling in his chair out of frustration immediately flashed me back to, “You see? See? See? See? See?” in One False Step.

Jack and Sam’s scene was very nice, because there was no ship. How sad that I have to be gleeful about a scene between a general and a colonel acting professional.

Jack sends in SG-1’s patented lie detector test – Teal’c! And I loved that, because Teal’c and Daniel have always had that inherent respect, earned through the hardest of knocks. And for Teal’c to openly question Daniel… to me, that seemed to startle Daniel a lot more than Jack’s doubts. And I did like the ambiguity of Daniel admitting to more information than what he’d given before.

It was about this point in the show when I started to wonder if Priors have no need for bodily functions. Did they actually keep him strapped to a chair for two days without even a restroom break? And when Daniel mentioned to Jack that Merlin knew his brain couldn’t cope with sustaining two distinct personalities, I suddenly felt incredibly sorry for Daniel. Doctor Daniel Jackson, Ph.D in Brain Invasion. Machello and Beneath the Surface and Oma wiping his memories and Lifeboat and now Merlin and Adria both. I know we all talk about Daniel being scarred by his experiences, but sometimes I wonder, a little uneasily, how much of the original Daniel is even left by now.

I know that a lot of people see Woolsey as a villain. I don’t. I think the IOA serves as a much more real and honest antagonist than the corrupt NID ever was. And I quite liked that Woolsey is taking a lesson – even if it’s the wrong one! – from what happened the last time they allowed an advanced being to stay alive a little too long. …Hey! Daniel said the same thing! Of course, it’s more than a little ironic that it was Daniel who insisted on destroying Khalek then, and it’s Daniel who is being condemned here.

You don’t have to be a Daniel/Vala shipper (which I am most emphatically not) to seriously be amused by Vala sitting casually on Daniel’s lap. Especially since Daniel had no choice in the matter, and couldn’t have protested even if he wanted to. He did seem utterly relaxed with it, though, so I’m personally reading that visual as friendship. And I liked that when she had to say the more painful things about trust and risk, she couldn’t sit on his lap any longer, and took a chair instead.

“You kill Daniel over my dead body!” You tell ‘em, Jack! Although a little more passion would have been appreciated.

And here comes the teamy goodness, yay! “They won’t let Daniel do it. Let’s do it for him.”

“That’s assuming he tells you.” “Why wouldn’t he?” I loved Sam for that. She honestly believes him and that he’ll help them fix this problem. Sam didn’t get a one-on-one conversation with Daniel! No fair!

“It’s my plan!” Hee! Pouty Daniel. But yay to Jack for reminding him that they’re a TEAM, and they call all do it together.

I couldn’t tell if the team knew that Woolsey planned to put Daniel into stasis or not. I did respect Woolsey’s decision to come and tell Daniel himself. But I hope I’m right that the team didn’t know, and I hope that Daniel knew that.

“Not part of my plan.” Oh my dear arrogant Daniel. Never change. :)

Jack’s discussion with Landry was odd, because he’s been out of the field for three years. But I loved, LOVED Jack’s reaction to being beamed on board. Hands still in pockets. Immediate understanding. Slight smile. Resigned shrug. Drawl: “Daniel.” And Daniel in the captain’s chair! He was uncomfortable with it in the Lucian Alliance ep, but here? Totally comfortable. Shades of Absolute Power. This was one of the (too few) moments when the ambiguity really worked.

I was very pleased that instead of Sam being left alone, as we’ve seen way too often, she had Teal’c watching her six.

Jack’s conversation with Daniel – they’re slowly starting to get that level of communication back. Slowly. And I laughed at Daniel’s statement, “I’m afraid the rest of the team won’t be able to complete the mission without me.” Do I have to mention the arrogance thing again? And Jack calling him on it so calmly. Yes – still not quite back to themselves, but getting there!

Vala and Mitchell putting the device together – I’m sorry they went for the obvious humor. Couldn’t they have, oh, written down Daniel’s instructions? But I did like Vala’s anxiety about being stopped.

And, heh. They were stopped – by Adria. Sam’s competence doesn’t help when the offical Cheat Code shows up. What is it with Stargate and glowing eyes for the bad guys, though? Or even mutated eyes? Poor Daniel with those milky irises! Although I prefer the odd eyes to Star Trek’s various bumps on foreheads and noses.

“We’re cloaked.”

“This ship doesn’t have that.”

“It does now… Having a ZPM helps.” Oh, huh? What? They have a ZPM on the ship now? Or did Daniel casually swipe it from Antarctica before they went to hyperspace? If so, that is seriously funny. (scrupulously avoids the "a" word)

Nice touch with Daniel’s hand behind his back to avoid tipping her off. Final decision to trust or not. Yeah. Go for it, guys. Yes! And then everything races to the last countdown and WHOOM!

Sam helps Daniel sit down in the chair. And she shows complete trust, telling Vala and Mitchell, “Do it.” And then after he reverts, Sam tipping Daniel’s head back, ever so gently… ::sniff:: I wish they’d had a scene together.

And Vala is the only one who thinks of grabbing Adria. Or, y’know, HER NECKLACE. It infuriates me that they have her at their mercy and they don’t do anything about it. I know, I know – no time, and Jack grabbed the number of people he was supposed to.

Head ruffle! “Sleepyhead”! Daniel and Jack totally back to normal with each other, including the snark! “How’s Daniel?” “Sunshine”! Teamy goodness for the absolute win! YAY!!!

…Or not. Because, oops? How difficult would it have been to set off the Gate again…? Hm. Probably very difficult, actually. If Daniel had stayed Priorized just another five minutes longer, than he might have been able to dial out again. As it is, we’ve got more trouble.

Did it work or not? Was Adria affected as Orici or not? The necklace wouldn’t be any more help to her than being in the Ori galaxy. How human is Adria? Does she channel the Ori, or did they imbue her with power that she can still keep? If the former, and it worked, her power wiped out along with them; if the latter, she still has power of her own. I guess we’ll have to wait and see. If Teal’c is right and the Priors do still have their powers, then Adria probably still does, too. And does the Odyssey keep its cloak? It’s apparently still working, since all the ships that came zooming through the Supergate apparently failed to spot them. And does Sam get to figure out how Daniel did it, since Daniel can’t tell her any more? (loved that shrug of Daniel’s when they asked him. “I have no idea,” personified.)

Bottom line: what there was, was great. But I think there could have been a lot more. I’m wondering if they’d originally planned an arc – maybe three episodes, or even more – and that’s why I had the idea that “discovering Daniel is a Prior” was supposed to be the cliffhanger ending of an ep, not something we first discovered in a teaser. But really, this should have been longer – if not a two- or three-parter, then at the very least a 90-minute ep a la Threads. Because there wasn’t enough time – not enough to wonder, not enough to see true fear for what Daniel might have become, not enough to see SG-1 and Jack truly fighting for Daniel, not enough to give us an honest accounting of the struggle with the ambiguity.

And on a purely shallow note, because I know that for some people, Daniel’s toes are strangely, incredibly attractive: Was he barefoot when he dashed from the infirmary in his cute blue scrubs (hee!) up to the bridge to watch the Ori ships coming through the Supergate? Because inquiring minds want to know. :)

Comments

[green-grrl.livejournal.com]

YAY!!!!

this episode was… hm. Rushed? Not as ambiguous as I’d hoped? A bit too pat?

I think the one thing that bothered me the most about this ep was the pacing. They've admitted that briefing room scenes are their worst -- they're boring. And yet this episode, all they did was yo-yo: briefing room, Daniel's holding room on the ship, up, down, up, down. The structure didn't work and flow for me. (But, yes, also that they didn't have a nice, ramped-up through-line about the ambiguity -- where they could build and build the tension about Is he or isn't he?)

And then Mitchell zatted him! Congratulations, Mitchell! Now you really are part of SG-1! It was the only thing missing.

Nope, nope. He hasn't died yet. ;-)

I’m not entirely willing to believe that they specifically designed the Ori uniforms for the sole purpose of matching Daniel’s eyes in the flashbacks.

Aw, c'mon. It was pretty much a given Daniel would end up in one of those uniforms sometime, even if it was just infiltration. Daniel -- Adria's Bridge's Ken doll. ;-)

But AUUUUGGHHHH! (excuse me for that Charlie Brown moment) That was sick. I mean, honestly sick.

Word! But like most kids, she likes to think that she's more mature than she is. So to her, her kiddie, first crush on Daniel (who, yeah, is also Mom's crush -- eeeew!) is womanly love. I had been spoiled for that as well, and was afraid they were going to really make a thing out of it. Fortunately, there was just the one, one-sided kiss and that was it. *shudder*

(besides, silly Orici, he was ever so much prettier before!)

So true! That makeup was quite the hindrance in the looks department.

JACK!!!! Jack Jack Jack! I love how he just casually shows up in the briefing room, no fanfare. Daniel needs him and Jack comes running. Jack!

I KNOW! I KNOW! *rolls around in the love*

Jack and Sam’s scene was very nice, because there was no ship. How sad that I have to be gleeful about a scene between a general and a colonel acting professional.

Ditto. Hell yes. Thank you.

It was about this point in the show when I started to wonder if Priors have no need for bodily functions.

Hee! That's actually the first thing I thought of when I saw him strapped into that thing: What if he has to pee?

“You kill Daniel over my dead body!” You tell ‘em, Jack! Although a little more passion would have been appreciated.

Yeah, I loved the sentiment, and was a teeny bit disappointed in the line reading.

Shades of Absolute Power.

Yes!

Head ruffle! “Sleepyhead”! Daniel and Jack totally back to normal with each other, including the snark!

*dies happy*

And on a purely shallow note, because I know that for some people, Daniel’s toes are strangely, incredibly attractive: Was he barefoot when he dashed from the infirmary in his cute blue scrubs (hee!) up to the bridge to watch the Ori ships coming through the Supergate? Because inquiring minds want to know. :)

Shallow minds vote yes! Shallow minds also think that the fugly Prior makeup for most of the ep was what made them give us TWO cute blue outfits, to make up for it. ;-)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, the pacing. It was like reading a comic book. "Meanwhile, back on Earth..." "Meanwhile, back on the Odyssey..." (or whatever ship it is these days. I lose track)

Nope, nope. He hasn't died yet. ;-)

Bwah!

He's come close, though. Before we even met him. But at least he's no longer behind the curve in the zat-Daniel category!

Daniel -- Adria's Bridge's Ken doll.

In that case, they should do better at giving him nicer civilian outfits. I refer you to niamaea's marvelous In Jacksonian Fashion. :)

They bothered to give spoiler's about Adria's stalking of Daniel? (Hm. Speaking of which, she really ought to be on the "people who stalked Daniel" list from last week's canon vs. fanon. Even though I didn't know about this, she's been pretty stalkery before now.) Why? It's not as if there were people clamoring for a Daniel/Adria kiss, like there are people cheering (for some odd reason) for Daniel/Vala.

...Are there? Please tell me NO.

Hee on the "Yes!" for Absolute Power allusions. Daniel has changed so much over the years, hasn't he? And if he lets that moral compass slip just a little bit further, Absolute Power, or its like, isn't that far down the road.

Shallow minds also think that the fugly Prior makeup for most of the ep was what made them give us TWO cute blue outfits, to make up for it.

Ah! I see, it all makes sense now. :)

[green-grrl.livejournal.com]

It was like reading a comic book. "Meanwhile, back on Earth..." "Meanwhile, back on the Odyssey..."

Ha ha! Yes!

Oh, I love In Jacksonian Fashion! Wardrobe has been a bit up and down with that. I get the early geekwear, and I get that he got better (or someone else shopped), but some of his choices are still o.O.

The spoiler about Adria actually came from Michael Shanks! In an interview where he was talking about Adria: "There is a bit of some sort of romantic entanglement that happens there and Daniel kind of pushes that aside as well. ... The most annoying thing is I sort of go, ‘I’m not saying he’s light in the loafers, and I know people have been saying that for years, but I’m starting to wonder myself where they are going with this.' Michael Shanks further explains that Joe Mallozzi ... told him it confirms Daniel as the gay icon that he is or something like that." BWAH! (Though, seriously dude, character-wise it was a non-starter. I think MS just wanted some het cred. ;-)

Ah! I see, it all makes sense now. :)

I have a very incisive mind that way. *nods*

[iamrosalita.livejournal.com]

The whole Prior!Daniel thing was originally supposed to be a 6-episode arc, then they whittled it down to a 3-episode arc, then to one episode, so yeah, it definitely should have been longer. There should have been more uncertainty about Daniel, but yeah, what was there was pretty good.

I also love Daniel's arrogance, and oh boy, was it on display here.

(besides, silly Orici, he was ever so much prettier before!)

Still, he's definitely the hottest prior ever!

“You kill Daniel over my dead body!” You tell ‘em, Jack! Although a little more passion would have been appreciated.

I can't help comparing his delivery here to his delivery of a similar line in Meridian. And there's no comparison. The line in Meridian had 100 times more passion.

And yay for the scene between Jack and Sam. Really, when was the last time we saw a scene between them that did not involve ship in some way, either explicit or implicit? This was very refreshing.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

The whole Prior!Daniel thing was originally supposed to be a 6-episode arc

...Wow. No wonder I had the vague idea the big revelation should be at the end, not at the beginning. And no wonder it felt so compressed - they squished six episodes' worth into one?

There had better not be any awful eps in the last ones still to come, or I will be really annoyed at the waste. :)

I can't help comparing his delivery here to his delivery of a similar line in Meridian. And there's no comparison. The line in Meridian had 100 times more passion.

And consider how many people were unhappy at the intensity of Jack's feelings in Revelations compared to Fire and Water. There, too, no comparison. Even a little anger would have helped in this episode! At least we got the sentiment, though.

Really, when was the last time we saw a scene between them that did not involve ship in some way, either explicit or implicit?

And isn't that just sad?

When I typed that line about the general and colonel, I stopped and stared at the screen, because putting it into words really clarified my feelings about the matter: Sam is a COLONEL and Jack is a GENERAL and they should have a PROFESSIONAL relationship.

I love their friendship. I hate the shipping, because it makes Sam and Jack ever so much less than they truly are.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

From what I understand, the six episodes actually included the eps MS was missing though, and Quest Part 2. So it's more like we got gipped of two episodes, not five other ones.

Oh, and I know you're avoiding the "a" word, but yes, Odyssey has a ZPM courtesy of Atlantis. Atlantis has one, and Antarctica has one.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I'll grant you that compressing three eps into one is a lot better than six. Still, what a pity we didn't get the arc!

I know you're avoiding the "a" word

Ah. Sorry for the confusion. The "a" word, in the context of this particular post, was arrogance. :)

Atlantis has a plethora of ZPMs now? Did I know this and forget? And if Atlantis is all ZPM-y, aren't there huge complications with constant back-and-forth with Earth?

...Oh, yeah. SG-1 is over and no more crossover problems. :(

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

Ah. Sorry for the confusion. The "a" word, in the context of this particular post, was arrogance. :)

Oh, sorry. Still not at 100%.

Um, SGA got three ZPMs in the two parter with RDA when the Ancients conveniently appeared, powered them all up, and then disappeared. Much to Rodney McKay's chagrin, Atlantis only got to keep one. Odyssey got another one (because they're fighting the Ori and Daedalus only fights the Wraith? I dunno). And Antarctica got the other one.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

Well that is good to know. I don't watch SGA and that point would have been nice to explain.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I think it's a little sad that the writers are no longer even trying to keep the shows separate any longer. In S8, Atlantis didn't have any connection with Earth at all - Prometheus Unbound, in fact, was SG-1's attempt to find out what was happening. In S9, there might have been a connection from the SGA side, but it didn't affect SG-1 - I don't even know if there was or not.

But this season? Pegasus Project was great - I felt I had everything I needed to understand what was happening, even though we were on SGA's turf. But then we got The Road Not Taken, with the built-in assumptions we would know about McKay's "bridge" (which I needed explained to me at length, and which I'm pretty sure I'm still not getting). And now this, with a casual throwaway line that assumes that I know that the Atlantis guys gave a couple of ZPMs to Earth.

Maybe the writers think that since SG-1 is ending, people desperate for a 'Gate fix are going to move over to SGA anyway. Or maybe they just don't care any more. :(

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I little more passion from Jack would have been nice, but I didn't get the sense of urgency from The Shroud that I got from Meridian. I don't think Jack really felt that Woolsey and the IOA would kill Daniel. He wouldn't allow it anyway. But in Meridian, it was entirely different. Daniel was dying and Jack felt very helpless. When Jack feels helpless he gets angry.

[izhilzha.livejournal.com]

Exactly what you said. Would I have liked seeing more passion from Jack here? Sure. But I think Jack's grown up just a teensy bit during his time as general, and there was no way they'd kill Daniel without literally killing Jack first. He didn't need to get angry, as long as they knew he was serious--and RDA's delivery of that line didn't leave any doubt.

*<3 Jack*

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I think Jack's grown up just a teensy bit during his time as general, and there was no way they'd kill Daniel without literally killing Jack first. He didn't need to get angry, as long as they knew he was serious--and RDA's delivery of that line didn't leave any doubt.

Oh, I like this. Yes. Jack knows he doesn't need to resort to emotional displays to get the point across.

*<3 Jack*

Most definitely :)

[izhilzha.livejournal.com]

Actually, I really liked how RDA played Jack in this whole episode. I've been watching a few episodes of Atlantis this season--the ones with Jack in them. ;-) And while he's still Jack, it's very odd to watch him interact with the Atlantis crew, and I think the Atlantis writers don't know the character as well.

(Or maybe it's just his interaction with SG-1 I was missing.)

But he seems older, more mature, more used to the higher levels of command. As you say, he doesn't need to resort to emotional displays to get the point across.

Anyway! Loved seeing him again. Lovelovelove.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

That's certainly true - it was theoretical here, as oppposed to being all too real over here. If the decision had gone further down the line, I expect we would have gotten BlackOps!Jack in full mode. :)

When Jack feels helpless he gets angry.

Hoo boy, yes!

[redbyrd-sgfic.livejournal.com]

Teal’c is right and the Priors do still have their powers

If the Ori are indeed dead, having that also rob the priors of their powers would be seriously inconsistent. Think about Khalek- his powers are explicitly prior-like, but they come from changes in his physiology, not because Anubis is hanging around mysteriously feeding them to him. The only time we've ever seen an Ancient 'give' power directly was when Daniel thought he was levitating things in Absolute Power- and that wasn't really him.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Inconsistent with what, though? Khalek was physically redesigned to be kickstarted on the road to Ascension. Hm. When you put it like that, the clearly physical changes that Adria wrought on Daniel do indicate some DNA tinkering going on somewhere. If that is the case, then the Priors definitely still do have some power.

The only time we've ever seen an Ancient 'give' power directly was when Daniel thought he was levitating things in Absolute Power- and that wasn't really him.

But those are the Ancients, who don't believe in interfering. We already know the Ori bestow power on their Priors. The question is only if it's a pipeline, so to speak, or a manipulation of their bodies to allow them to channel abilities they didn't have before. Going by Khalek I'd say the latter, as you do; but I think there's room to argue either way.

[jeanne-dark.livejournal.com]

(*waves* Hi, occasional lurker here, decided to come out and comment, if you don't mind.)

I was going to go into this whole thing in answer to what you've just said, but was pulled up short by the realization that I don't know if you watch Atlantis (indications say no, since you didn't know about the ZPMs...?), and a lot of what I was going to say has information pulled from that show.

So without going into that at all, I think it very much is your latter option, that being the manipulation of DNA. The Priors have been evolved to a higher point, though whether they could reach ascension is doubtful, since the Ori would never let them. (And that last point brings up new questions in my mind, if the Ori could stop one of their followers from reaching ascension when said follower was on the Ancients' playground and not on their home turf. Hmm...)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Thanks for joining in! Really, the discussions that spring up in the comments is one of the parts of LJ I enjoy most. :)

No, I don't watch SGA. So any clarifications are appreciated!

The Priors have been evolved to a higher point

Well, they've been jumpstarted to a higher point. Not quite the same.

if the Ori could stop one of their followers from reaching ascension when said follower was on the Ancients' playground and not on their home turf

If by that, you mean the Milky Way - then yes. Gerak saved Earth and got fried for his pains, so clearly the Ori have some kind of fail-safe hair-trigger built in. Which... makes Daniel's plans a lot scarier, suddenly. Because if Merlin hadn't rewritten his DNA back to "little old me," as Daniel puts it, the poor boy might have turned into a puff of greasy smoke.

[jeanne-dark.livejournal.com]

If by that, you mean the Milky Way - then yes.

And that's what I get for forgetting about large chunks of season 9. *facepalm* I really must rewatch it one of these days.

Well, they've been jumpstarted to a higher point. Not quite the same.

Heh, yes. I know that "evolve" is wrong, but, erm, I blame SGA? Right, the SGA thing, in The Tao of Rodney (which was, coincidentally, paired with The Shroud when aired on Friday night, and, sometimes, I think TPTB do things like this on purpose...), they find an Ancient machine that manipulates human DNA. It makes McKay so advanced that he's right up on the edge of ascension, could he just make that final leap. At that point, he gains a lot of power that's similar to what the Priors and Khalek have (and, in fact, they namedrop Khalek in it), like telekinesis and the ability to heal.

And, for me, watching this episode, it wasn't that big of a leap to make that, if the Ancients could do this to the DNA, then so could the ascended Others (though they never would), and thus the Ori. And looking at these three examples of McKay, Khalek, and the Priors, and how similar they all are in terms of power, how they are all more than the baseline norm and less than ascended beings, and how the first two of those are through changes in their DNA, it seemed like a good chance to think that the Priors gained their power through the manipulation of their DNA and not through a pipeline of some kind.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Y'know, your description of this SGA episode sounds an awful like a fanfic. :) I hope Daniel got mentioned, too, and not just Khalek!

As I mentioned somewhere else in the comments here, it's a little sad that the writers have stopped making a clear line between SG-1 and SGA. It's all very well for fans of both, but confusing as anything for those of us who never crossed from one galaxy to the next.

OTOH - yes, I'd agree with you: based on the info you've noted here, Teal'c is definitely right, and the Priors will still go around with powers. So we'll have to see what happens next!

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I thought the Priors have a fail safe though. If they go rogue, like Garek, the go boom which is why I think Merlin programmed Daniel to go back.

I don't know how this failsafe would work if the Ori died.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

If they go rogue, like Garek, the go boom which is why I think Merlin programmed Daniel to go back.

That's an interesting interpretation. I assumed Merlin just wanted to spare Daniel the consequences of the plan he was talking Daniel into carrying out, but this - hm.

As for the failsafe - well, unless we hear in the next ep that Priors on several planets combusted simultaneously... :)

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I read the banter a little differently, and one of these days I'll be focused enough to really explain it. But I saw Jack as wanting to banter, wanting to reach out because he sucks with emotions and there is this guy that's not really Daniel but is. Daniel wants to cut through the crap and get things done now because he doesn't have time -- sort of like Full Circle when Jack wanted to banter and Daniel turned, rolled his eyes, and then jumped into it.

But I totally agree with you on arrogant Daniel. I'm actually a big fan of Daniel's arrogance because it's been there since the movie. :)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I like this idea. I'm going to have to think about it. Especially with the Full Circle thing.

I'm actually a big fan of Daniel's arrogance because it's been there since the movie. :)

And I'm a big fan because I think it's a huge part of his personality, and I just love Daniel, period. :)

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

You were right, we did have very similar reactions.

’m charmed by Mitchell’s fanboy memorization of all the SG-1 mission files, and his apparent familiarity with pop culture is just fine as a personality quirk. Using pop culture in conversation with off-worlders, though, just makes him look idiotic.

Huh. I was reading that and realized something. Ben Browder played John Crichton on Farscape - an astronaut from Earth who ends up in another galaxy. One of Crichton's charms is his constant references to Earth pop culture (and his alien shipmates constant frustration with/teasing him about said inexplicable references). I wonder if this is a carry-over from that? Though it worked much, much better on Farscape than I've seen it work on Stargate.

Daniel isn’t very fond of the Ancients and their Rules™, and it probably wasn’t all that difficult for him to portray honest dislike for it.

I rewatched "Abyss" two weeks ago and it was really fascinating listening to Daniel because right then he seems to really love being Ascended, and to follow and mostly be happy obeying the rules (and understand the reason behind them) and it's such a contrast to his attitude now. Love how the grass on the other side that looked greener actually isn't...

I'm not the only one who hates Adria's stupid neckpiece!

It’s hardly a memory that Jack values; it’s sketchy if Daniel actually remembers it on his own, or if that might be Merlin doing the talking after doing a rummage around Daniel’s mind

Oooh! Good point! I like that a lot, especially since I strongly believe it's not something Jack and Daniel have ever talked about and not something Daniel remembers - I like the idea of that surfacing memory being due to Merlin's meddling. And I kept flashing back to the "Spirits" conversation too - such a different situation trying to figure out who is who.

“It does now… Having a ZPM helps.” Oh, huh? What? They have a ZPM on the ship now? Or did Daniel casually swipe it from Antarctica before they went to hyperspace? If so, that is seriously funny.

If it helps any - Atlantis is just as bad at referring to SG-1 (and they have WAY more canon to refer to). But, yeah, in the mid-season 3 two parter by the end they have 3 ZPMs so one stays in Atlantis and two go to Earth for the Odyssey and the Antarctic chair (and when I was watching it I was thinking "what's an Odyssey?") I did love the end - Sam asking Daniel HOW he cloaked the Odyssey and him not knowing (I wonder - does this mean the Odyssey is now permanently cloaked - cause that would be amusing).

They left us SO HANGING! And, really, I'm sorry but there are currently 8 Ori ships heading right to Earth whcih they will blow to smithereens in a heart beat. No way around it - get rid of the meddlers and it will be easier to convert the rest of the galaxy.
But yes, Sam NEEDED a scene with Prior!Daniel really badly and this episode needed more than it gave. Adria shouldn't have been affected by the device, no clue about the necklace or Why They Didn't Rip It Off Her Neck!

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I've never watched Farscape. I actually watch very, very little television. And while I'm all for subtle in-jokes - for example, Martin Wood or PDL giving themselves cameos - I get very annoyed by "jokes" that hit the viewer over the head and ruin the show. So if they are channeling Farscape deliberately, they're being rather silly about it.

Abyss!Ascended!Daniel vs. S10!Daniel and his attitudes - whew, yes. That was Daniel's first serious attempt to interfere on the "lower" plane and I think he was a little alarmed at his limitations. He managed to sneak past the rules for Teal'c and Jack, but I wonder if he wanted to help Sam, too, and Oma made him back off, and it was that near-fatal restriction that made him kinda throw caution to the winds when Abydos was on the line.

I'm not the only one who hates Adria's stupid neckpiece!

Hee! It hardly flatters her, does it? Stupid props department.

Others in the comments did clarify for me about the ZPM, but it's a prime example of using SGA canon and expecting SG-1 fans to know it, and it's wrong. I don't think it's fair to compare it to SGA using SG-1 canon - after all, SGA has no choice but to reference Earth and the SGC. Quite frankly, I wish Atlantis was still incommunicado, and that crossovers were still impossible - even though Pegasus Project remains the best ep of S10 for me.

I did love the end - Sam asking Daniel HOW he cloaked the Odyssey and him not knowing

Oh, yes, I thought that was hilarious! And as you say, the implications...! "Sir, I can't find the Odyssey again!"

Adria shouldn't have been affected by the device, no clue about the necklace or Why They Didn't Rip It Off Her Neck!

Okay, Adria getting affected. We discussed up thread whether the Priors are genetically manipulated to be able to do funky telekinetic stuff, and so on, or if they're only pipelines to the Ori, getting fed their power directly from the source. The general consensus was that it was the former. And if Adria is the same, she'd be affected just as much; her necklace wouldn't protect her from that.

To be fair, there was no time to rip the necklace off Adria's neck, or take her prisoner. Vala starts to ask, "What about Adria?" just as Jack beams them back. And Jack had no way of knowing there was an unconscious Orispawn rather than an unconscious Ori soldier in the room, so why should he think to beam her out, too?

It does make them stupid, though, doesn't it? And after all this build-up - we've been trying to find/make this weapon since Arthur's Mantle! - it is infuriating that we not only don't get to find out if it really worked, but that the Ori are able to send so many ships into the Milky Way. As I've complained many, many times, the writers don't quite seem to have mastered the concept of giving SG-1 an occasional victory without simultaneously making things worse since S2.

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

Well, if they were trying to reference Farscape they weren't trying hard because I only just thought it. But then, I'm only just discovering Farscape. I actually was more excited a few episodes back (Line in the Sand?) when Vala told someone (the villagers?) they could be more because that's the classic phrase about Claudia Black's character in Farscape but it didn't matter if SG fans didn't know that. I probably watch more tv than you, but not a lot, so pop culture references blow by me a lot too.

He managed to sneak past the rules for Teal'c and Jack, but I wonder if he wanted to help Sam, too, and Oma made him back off, and it was that near-fatal restriction that made him kinda throw caution to the winds when Abydos was on the line.

I spent so much of late S6-early S7 flailing about that. And I'm still not done - about Sam being hurt he never came to her and such. Poor Daniel - no one showed him the fine print before he went glowy (to be fair, if death is your only other option, you can't really blame him...)

Quite frankly, I wish Atlantis was still incommunicado, and that crossovers were still impossible

Most SGA fans wish they'd stayed out of touch longer too - it really changed the show and started making it about Earth when one of its charms had been that it *wasn't* about Earth. But, for SGA, it's one thing to reference SGC and Earth, another to reference losing Prometheus or Sam blowing up a sun or the Odyssey or...*could keep going*

I'm pretty sure Priors are genetically manipulated. It works with what we know of Kalek. Also, there's an SGA episode where Rodney gets zapped by an Ancient device that modifies his DNA and sets him on the path to Ascension and he develops Prior-like powers (telekensis, telepathy, etc). So the Ori being killed wouldn't un-change the DNA. I do wonder why Priors look different when Prior-ized, and also if the burst-into-flame safeties still apply (Daniel's lucky he didn't turn into a blowtorch...). So if Adria's powers are DNA, she wouldn't be affected. Not sure about the necklace.

There was time. Adria was on the floor unconscious for a minute or two at least, Teal'c had time to go over and rip it off, Vala could have when she got in. I mean, it seems like you'd do it right away because you don't know how long she'd be out. I get why Jack wouldn't beam her, but not why they wouldn't do anything (also, turning your backs on her and expecting her to stay unconscious is just asking for trouble)

No kidding - I mean, the Ori weren't even really the threat - the Priors and soldiers are the real threat. I wouldn't call this a victory at all.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

the Ori weren't even really the threat - the Priors and soldiers are the real threat. I wouldn't call this a victory at all.

Hm. I don't think I'd agree with that.

In the SHORT TERM, you're right - the Ori are just Out There Thinking Menacing Thoughts, and it's the Priors and the cannon fodder that are so very dangerous to our galaxy. But in the long term? There's no way to create new ships. No way to create new Priors. The resources might still be vast, but they're suddenly finite. And in the even longer term, no more Ori means no higher-plane-of-existence battle to take place and totally devastate the "lower" planes.

So problems still now, yes. But if the Ori really are destroyed, they've reduced the Ori invasion to the threat level of the Goa'uld - demanding worship, possessing superior power/technology, but ultimately capable of being defeated.

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

Huh.
Now I'm thinking. We actually haven't seen the Ori interfere much more than the Ancients. I mean, they give Prior's power (but is that similar to putting them on the path to Ascension and like Oma and thus not strictly interfering?) but it's the Priors who fly the ships, activate the ships, bring people back from the dead, etc.
I agree, it'll be good to not have war on the higher planes...but now I'm really curious about the Ori threat and what they can and cannot do.

True - defeating those ships and such would still be really hard, but they are reduced (and possibly more easily swayed - maybe easier to turn a few rogue Priors perhaps?)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Of course we've seen the Ori interfere. The Priors' ability are, by definition, interference. What we haven't seen is their direct interference without proxy, except for the time when they zapped into the Doci's mind to talk to Daniel way back in Origin.

is that similar to putting them on the path to Ascension and like Oma and thus not strictly interfering?

I'd have to say no, because while the Priors are promised ultimate ascension as the Grand Prize (tm), Orlin told us last season that the Ori have no intention of ascending their followers, because they feed on the psychic energy of their worship and more Ori would mean less energy to go around for the rest of them..

I'm really curious about the Ori threat and what they can and cannot do.

Technically? They should be on the level of the Ascended with the brakes off, and we've only never seen it because they're not ready to confront the Ascended until they've got their Milky Way power boost by converting the galaxy. Practically speaking? We never will, even if the weapon didn't work. Which is, of course, one of the hugest drawbacks of the Ori as the bad guys - no face on terror means not much terror at all.

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

Of course we've seen the Ori interfere. The Priors' ability are, by definition, interference.

Maybe. But does this straddle a line? It is possible, without being ascended, to built technology to get people partway to ascension, and thus give them those powers - we've seen this on SG1 and SGA. They seem to use some sort of machine thing to Prior-ize people, and thus maybe they aren't using their powers-as-Ascended-beings to give Priors power?

Just because the Ori don't want their followers to Ascend, doesn't mean they can't strand them halfway so they can be more powerful.

And this makes me wonder why the brakes exist - is there a bigger reason for the brakes - not just ethics or whatever, but a more important picture?

The Ori aren't the bad guys really - it's the Priors and such, but I get what you mean about the faceless bad.

I don't know...I'm mostly just thinking outloud here about what the Ori can cannot, will and will not do. It seems like they should be able to interfere in their own galaxy, where the Ascended can't stop them - I'm just not wure whether they do.

(also, while I'm glad they have an answer for the question of why the Ori need worshippers, I wish they'd come up with something more creative or...had bad guys who didn't also want to be gods)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Ooooh, thinky comments! Always a good thing. :)

I'm mostly just thinking outloud here about what the Ori can cannot, will and will not do. It seems like they should be able to interfere in their own galaxy, where the Ascended can't stop them - I'm just not wure whether they do.

It's hard for me to be definite, since I've watched S9 only once, besides the SGC bits of Arthur's Mantle and some of the bits of Camelot. But IIRC, there's no limitation on what the Ori can or will do, in their own galaxy. In the Milky Way, they don't want a fight just yet, until they've loaded the dice in their favor.

So what do they do in their galaxy? Boringly, the same thing as the Goa'uld - keep the people to a low level of technology/knowledge. Not to avoid rebellion as much as make sure they're perfectly happy to remain mindless drones, since prostration is apparently a definite factor in psychic juice. Or whatever.

Priorizing in SG-1, aside from Khalek, is via direct Ori intereference (or Orispawn kiss, ugh!), not via machine. It was in Origin. Gerak bored me enough so I don't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure he also got a visit to Celustus or whatever it's called before he was Priorized, and got zapped personally by the Ori. Would it still be called interference if they built some kind of technology, and then let the machine do the work? Maybe, but since they don't have a non-interference policy, does it matter?

Are you asking why the brakes exist for the Ori, or the Ascended? For the latter, I'd say it's because absolute power corrupts absolutely, and enough things have happened in the past to make the Ascended accept that self-imposed limitation as an absolute law. If the former, I imagine it's because they're happy with their power and don't want to share it - OR the phychic worship juice.

I don't agree that the Priors are the bad guys and not the Ori. That's like saying the Jaffa were the ultimate bad guys, not the Goa'uld, since the Jaffa did most of the dirty work. I agree that the Priors are the official representatives of the bad guys and do plenty of damage on their own; and in Line in the Sand, we see they can have their own agenda. But I still say that the Ori are really the bad guys here.

If it wasn't for Daniel's direct contact with them in Origin, when the Ori spelled out their intentions, I would question if the Ori really ARE bad guys. If you took the Book of Origin literally - the passages we've seen - it doesn't seem so bad, does it? But we've had multiple confirmations - the Ori themselves to Daniel, and Orlin in 4th Horseman - that the Ori really are determined to forcibly convert the Milky Way, and to do it to advance their own power. So, yeah. Bad guys, definitely.

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

It makes sense to me for the Ori to keep their followers limited. If they were allowed to develop techonology/knowledge they might also be more likely to question the Ori as gods, and also spend less time in prostration (and I wonder, does the power come in someone believing they are gods, or do they only get power during active worship?)

I'm not sure about the Prior-izing. In Shroud it looked to me like Adria kissed Daniel, then opened a lantern-like thing next to her from which flame came out to Prior-ize him (machine maybe?) and I thought in Origin (could be remembering wrong) the dude became a Prior when he looked into a giant pit of flame - could be the Ori, could be masking a machine. Dunno.

I guess - I'm wondering what prompted the Ancients to develop the non-interference rule. Did they start it right away, or learn from a mistake (like the Tollan?) or is there something that actually really backfires, and could thus cause problems for the Ori also? For that matter, I don't get the psychic worship juice. Is it like Peter Pan and believing in fairies? (*imagines entire galaxy chanting "I don't believe in the Ori!"*)

Okay, you have a point - though I think the Priors are closer to evil/bad guys than the Jaffa were - especially with the own agenda thing. But, you're right about the Ori having the ultimate bad plan.

And, it's true, the Book or Origin isn't so bad (it would have to be if you're using it to gain converts) - it's all about interpretation (um, not that they would be making statements on the real world here at all, oh no). Also, I still don't know how they argue that the Ori aren't gods - they seem fairly god-like to me, depending on how you define god, and there's no rule that gods have to always be nice and friendly (the old-testament god certainly has a vengeful side going, and if you look at other Earth theologies you get gods of all sorts of personality).

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I really saw the flames as a physical representation of the Ori. I certainly don't remember a lamp or what-have-you zapping Daniel. If you're right about the latter, that makes the kiss even more squicky. Ugh.

In the long run, does it matter if they're directly manipulating people or using machinery? They don't have a non-interference policy, so who cares what method they use?

I'm not interested in trying to draw parallels to the real world, much less theology! I personally get annoyed when the writers let their political leanings show too closely. I like my escapist fantasy to stay escapist, thanks.