Canon vs. Fanon, part 11: The Fanonization of Saint Daniel, part one

[fignewton]

I bid a warm welcome to you newcomers, and many thanks to those that have recced this series to others! It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside. :)

This is the eleventh section of the Canon vs. Fanon series, but it's actually the subject that I most wanted to address from the very beginning. I know it’s been quite a while since the last post, but this one is not only long and complicated, but a rather touchy subject. Some might find this a bit controversial, although I do hope no one will find it insulting.

I make this observation from time to time, but it's important, I think, that I really stress it here: I am not attempting, in any way, to denigrate or mock any of the fanfic writers out there. You've all given me countless hours of reading pleasure, even if your take on the characters might not be exactly the same as my own. The sole purpose of these posts is to point out the differences between the actual canon on the show and the popular fanon that is so prevalent among many of the fanfic authors for SG-1. And while, as I've said before, there is nothing inherently wrong about fanon, writers should be aware of what is actually true characterization from the show and what is being absorbed through osmosis from the more popular trends in fics, especially when the fanon actually contradicts canon.

That being said, this is one of the more irritating fanon tropes that crops up with more regularity than it should. So let's address the fanonization of Saint Daniel, and why it's actually a detriment to the character and the stories he frequents.

I know there are fans out there who dislike Daniel, hard as that might be for me to believe. :) But for those of us normal fans who love him, there is an unfortunate tendency among many authors to exaggerate his good character traits and pretend that his more irritating personality quirks simply don't exist. This section will discuss the common fanon sainthood elements and analyze how they simply don't fit with Daniel's character – and why that's actually a good thing.

Brief recap: Canon is defined as anything directly shown during Stargate: The Movie or episodes of the show; show supersedes movie when there's a contradiction. (Jack O'Neill and Sha're both have brown eyes, not blue ones.) Fanon is defined as widely-accepted concepts that appear in fanfic, but do not have any real basis in canon.

Expect references to any episode that has already aired in the US – at the time of this posting, that’s through The Road Not Taken of S10. I try to highlight spoilers for S9 and beyond if you’re trying to avoid them, but I can't promise I've caught them all.

Sainthood

I love Daniel. I wouldn't be working on part 11 of this series if I didn't. :) I admire his thirst for knowledge, his compassion, his humanity, his inherent belief in other people, his fascinating ability to think sideways and possibly upside-down. But I also recognize that he isn't perfect: he can be stubborn, arrogant, narrow-minded, snippy, and even cruel.

Let's begin with some of the more common fanon assertions about Daniel's wonderfulness! And if I’ve missed a “favorite” fanon trope of yours – or if you disagree with any of my analyses – please do drop a comment and let me know.

Daniel is a charming people-person who knows the names of the spouses and children of everyone in his department as well as half the staff in the SGC.

Like Janet's nurses and their lotteries to give Daniel sponge baths, there is absolutely no canon basis whatsoever for this. We really only see regular interaction between Daniel and two "minor" members of the SGC: Simon Wells and Bill Lee. Lee is one of the more entertaining recurring characters, of course, although his competence and personality seem to fluctuate according to the demands of the script; but other than sitting down with him in an outdoors café in Evolution, we never see Daniel interact with him on a social basis. And while Daniel visits Wells in his home, and brings a teddy bear for baby Janet, we never see Wells again after that.

Oddly enough, many of the fanfic writers who use this bit of fanon often marry it simultaneously with the “Daniel is so absorbed with his translations that he has to be dragged out of his office for meals” fanon (which is more or less debunked here), without seeming to notice the apparent contradiction: a man who is so single-minded about his work would have neither the time nor the opportunity to socialize.

Conclusion: Daniel does not keep tabs on the private lives of the people at the SGC.

Daniel is so self-effacing that he has everyone call him Daniel, and he's on a first-name basis with everyone he meets.

One of General Hammond’s more endearing characteristics (to me) was the formality of his interaction with his people: while he cared for them, he maintained propriety. Other than the rare use of “Jack,” the members of SG-1 were always addressed by rank: Captain or Major (despite his friendship with the Carter family), Colonel, and, yes, Doctor Jackson. It was, in fact, something that took me very much aback in [S9 spoiler!] Origin, when Landry spoke to Mitchell and Teal’c over the intercom into the Gateroom, in public, to tell them that “Daniel was awake.” (Oddly enough, Landry addresses Daniel as “Doctor Jackson,” but continues to refer to him as “Daniel” when speaking to others. He does this again in Arthur’s Mantle, in discussion with Bill Lee.) Dr. Lam also refers to Daniel as “Daniel” when discussing his condition in Avalon and Origin, although we never see her address him by his first name.

Hammond calls Daniel “Doctor Jackson,” as does Walter the Chevron Guy, Siler, even Bill Lee – a person who we might expect to be on a first-name basis with Daniel, and who Daniel does call by his first name. (Bill calls him “Daniel” once in Evolution. That’s it.)

How often does Daniel tell people to “call me Daniel”? Not that often, actually. (I’m discounting off-worlders, to whom the title “doctor” would be incomprehensible – even Aris Boch – and who are most often introduced to the team by their first names, not their titles.) Even Sam and Daniel don’t get onto a first-name basis until Emancipation – Sam calls him “Daniel” twice there, although Daniel is still calling her “Doctor” or “Captain Doctor”; in fact, the first time Daniel actually calls Sam by her first name is in Fire and Water, when he first wakes up in Nem’s underwater house/lab and calls, “Jack? Sam, Teal’c? Anyone?” That’s the twelfth episode.

Colonel Chekov, who knew Daniel over a period of five years, always called him “Doctor Jackson.” Colonel Vaselov called him “Doctor Jackson” throughout Lockdown, as do the Russian soldiers in The Tomb. The members of other SG teams call him “Doctor Jackson,” or sometimes just “Jackson.” The recruits from Proving Ground most definitely call him “Doctor Jackson.” Maybourne, despite his frequent use of “Jack,” still calls Daniel “Doctor Jackson” in It’s Good to Be King. And even Sabrina Gosling, who thinks that her aunt’s funeral is the perfect time to do a little flirting, doesn’t get a “call me Daniel.”

So who does call him Daniel, then? Obviously, the members of SG-1. (sticks out tongue at Mitchell) Kawalsky and Ferretti, who were on the first mission to Abydos. Janet, although that took a while – as far as I can tell, the first time was in Need in S2. Katherine Langford, who called him “Jackson” in the movie but is calling him “Daniel” in Torment of Tantalus. Apophis in Serpent’s Song, although that wasn’t by invitation. Dr. MacKenzie in Legacy – also not by invitation. Jacob Carter, does, although – believe it or not! – it takes until Exodus, at the end of the fourth season, before Jacob addresses him by his first name, and Selmac always calls him "Doctor Jackson." (I find that adorable, for some odd reason.) Stephen Rayner and Sarah Gardener do, by virtue of long acquaintance. Paul Davis first calls him “Daniel” in 48 Hours, after meeting with him several times before. (Actually, he’s still calling him “Doctor Jackson,” until he gets very frustrated during an argument and says, “Dammit, Daniel!” That just amused me.) Jonas, as far as I can tell, called him “Doctor Jackson” throughout S6, and certainly in Meridian and Fallen, although he does start calling him “Daniel” in Homecoming when Daniel comes to try and break him out of his holding cell.

The number of people that we actually see Daniel tell to “call me Daniel” are very few:

Heroes. He tells Wells to call him Daniel, after Janet’s death – which pretty much implies that it’s unusual for the member of another SG team to call him Daniel under normal circumstances.

Resurrection. He specifically tells Anna to call him Daniel, but she never actually does.

New Order. He finally tells Elizabeth to call him Daniel – after they’ve been working together for several weeks.

Icon. Leda calls him “Daniel.” While we don’t see him specifically suggest this, it’s only reasonable to get on first-name basis with the woman who nurses him back to health. Jared Kane calls him “Doctor Jackson,” although he refers to him in dialogue with Leda as Daniel. S9 Spoiler! In Ethon, Kane still calls him “Doctor Jackson,” even though Daniel is calling him both “Jared” and “Kane” by now – until they’re back in the cells, after Prometheus has been destroyed. Kane calls him Daniel, then asks the question that prompts the best Daniel line of S9: “Don’t you ever give up?” “Not until I’m dead… and sometimes, not even then.” I couldn’t possibly pass up the chance to use that quote, could I?

Affinity. Teal’c introduces Daniel to Krista as “Daniel Jackson.” Later, when they are both held hostage by the members of The Trust, Krista calls him “Daniel” twice. Daniel never actually suggested that she call him Daniel; but then, she hardly knows him in a professional capacity, except as “the archeologist who hired Teal’c to come over from Mozambique.”

Conclusion: Other than his close friends, Daniel is not usually on a first-name basis with people.

Other characters often marvel at how incredible it is for the "young scientist" to come so far at such a youthful age.

I must confess that this particular fanon trope absolutely infuriates me. Daniel was born in 1964 or 1965, with most authors choosing the latter date. That means that by the time Hammond sends Jack to Abydos to bring Daniel back to Earth, Daniel is thirty-two or thirty-three years old. By the time he first descends, Daniel is thirty-eight or thirty-nine. (I had the mathematics off a bit and made him a year older, but theemdash corrected me.)  And yet I’ve seen fics where Mitchell, of all people, thinks of Daniel as the “young archeologist”!

No one under the age of sixty is going to consider someone in their thirties to be “young.” And while Hammond asks, “How’s our boy?” in Politics and occasionally calls him “son,” Hammond has also been known to call Teal’c “son,” despite the fact that Teal’c is several decades older than Hammond himself.

Yes, Daniel has made remarkable accomplishment in his life. So has Sam, but I have never read a story in which Hammond or Jack or anyone else muses about the “young woman” and what she’s done with her life.

Conclusion: calling Daniel “young,” either through the introspection of other characters or through prose, is faulty. “Younger man,” in contrast to Jack, is technically true; but at the age of thirty-plus, Daniel cannot reasonably be called “young.”

Daniel's solutions and proposals are always right. The SGC knows this and acts accordingly.

Daniel’s batting average is quite high; his theories, even those that seem utterly bizarre at first glance, are often correct. Let’s look at just some of his unique accomplishments: He opened the Stargate. He suggested that, despite Sam’s insistence that the Stargate couldn’t go anywhere besides Abydos, something he couldn’t even name – stellar drift – might be affecting her calculations. He theorized that there were other beings out there like Ra, pretending to be gods, even before they went to Chulak. He posited the existence of benevolent aliens who might help them fight the Goa’uld, leading them to Cimmeria and ultimately the Asgard. He spotted the “I’m a civilian” loophole and, together with the team, got the Tollan safely off-world. He saved Jack and Sam’s life by figuring out that there was a second Stargate on Earth. His determination to stop Apophis, and his persistence, impelled the rest of SG-1 to go AWOL with him and stop the invasion of Earth at the end of S1. He recognized the sentience of the orb in Message in a Bottle; he posited the existence of the Ancients before Jack staggered through the Gate in The Fifth Race; he realized that he was being affected by the playback in One False Step; he found Seth on Earth in a matter of hours... and so on, and so on.

However, that doesn’t mean Daniel is always right. On the contrary: Daniel has been spectacularly wrong on many, many occasions.

Daniel recklessly asserted he could get the original team back to Earth in the movie, only to discover that Ra had forbidden reading and writing, and there was no inscription of the symbols to be found. He opened the Stargate on Abydos, assuming that with Ra’s death, there could be no danger – even though he knew at that point that a whole network of Stargates existed. Despite the knowledge Hathor displayed on their first meeting, he did not treat her with any kind of caution (and then, of course, it was too late). He displayed an appalling lack of diplomacy with Shyla’s father even before he got addicted to the sarcophagus, possibly short-circuiting a golden opportunity to get the team out at an early stage. As charming as it was, automatically answering “Nyet” in 1969 was astonishingly stupid. On Kheb, he assured Jack that the monk was teaching him pyrokinesis and telekinesis so that he could take care of the Harcesis child and protect him. He acted as idiotically as Sam and Jack when he wore the Atenik armbands. He assumed Stephen had been taken as a host by Osiris, not Sarah… Again, as with his many accurate theories and suggestions, I could go on and on.

One trait of Daniel’s that I do truly admire is his willingness to admit to his mistakes or his ignorance. He doesn’t hesitate to say, on many occasions, “I have no idea” (how many people do that so readily?); and when he does recognize his errors, he states them openly, as he does in Message in a Bottle, when he apologizes to Hammond, and Maternal Instinct, when he tells Jack that he was wrong to think he’d been creating the fires and moving Jack’s gun on his own. But it’s that very admirable trait – the willingness to say when he’s wrong – that proves the fallacy of the fanon claim that Daniel is always right.

Conclusion: While Daniel is definitely right more often than he is wrong, he is by no means infallible in his theories and proposals.

Daniel is practically angelic: honest under any circumstance, willing to forgive the cruelest, most dismissive behavior and the most heinous crimes, capable of soothing ruffled feathers and always finding the diplomatic solution.

Daniel is anything but an angel.

Thank goodness.

Yes, Daniel forgave Teal’c for first kidnapping, then killing, his wife. He even put aside his own pain to passionately plead for Teal’c’s life in Cor-Ai, and fired the staff weapon that destroyed the Hammer. Yes, Daniel amazingly put his own resentment of Apophis aside to offer last rites to the dying man who wore his hated enemy’s face in Serpent’s Song. Yes, Daniel went to his former professor’s funeral out of respect, despite knowing that he’s likely to meet up with hostility and will have no way to defend himself. Yes, Daniel has spent ten years controlling what must be the almost irresistible urge to shout the truth to the world at large and prove that his theories were right. Yes, Daniel understands the need for honesty at the right time, as when he told Thor the truth about Cimmeria’s vulnerability. Yes, Daniel has injected calm into hostile situations and managed diplomatic miracles.

But all that doesn’t mean that Daniel is perfect. On the contrary, Daniel is capable of the worst kinds of behavior, when the circumstances are right (or wrong).

Daniel displays incredible arrogance from the moment he first steps foot in Cheyenne Mountain, when he casually erases the work of others without so much as a by-your-leave to translate the coverstone according to his own theories. He assures Jack that he has to be the one to beam up the al’kesh in Endgame, because he can read Ancient; once he gets there, he actually ends up zatting the system, which anyone could have done just as easily. I will readily concede that Daniel’s arrogance is honestly come by: he’s right so often that he finds it difficult to imagine that his conclusions are wrong. And when they are wrong, he’s ready and willing to admit to his mistakes. But the arrogance is unquestionably there.

He lies to General West about the ease of getting the team back to Earth. He allows scientific enthusiasm to blind him to the human side of things (“Daniel thinks it’s fascinating” in The Enemy Within; he and Jack are nearly killed by his obsession in The Torment of Tantalus.)

Daniel is capable of extreme ruthlessness. He coolly destroyed a tank full of symbiotes on Chulak in Bloodlines without displaying the slightest hint of remorse. He threatened to kill Apophis if the Goa’uld did not tell him where to find Sha’re. He was ready to assassinate the System Lords, including their hosts, in Summit/Last Stand – only Sarah’s presence, and the news of Anubis that she brought, aborted that intention. S9-10 Spoilers! He recognized the danger of Khalek’s continued existence, advocated his extermination, and actually fired the shots that broke through Khalek’s defenses. He was pragmatic enough to try and kill Adria while she was still a child – something that shocked Sam when she heard of it. And when the villain who dared to menace his close friend was beamed out into space to die a pretty horrible death, he didn’t do more than blink. Some of these reactions, especially in S10, are characterizations with which I am extremely unhappy. But no matter how much I might want to plug my ears and hum loudly, I’m stuck with them as canon.

His behavior in Past and Present in the briefing room – his lack of respect for Hammond and his callous manipulation of Teal’c’s past – is appalling. My personal opinion is that Daniel was still shell-shocked over Sha’re and furious that Jack wouldn’t believe him about Kheb, and that he latched onto the crusade of saving Kira as a desperate need to save somebody. I know I’ve read many stories where the author took the same tack. But no matter what prompted it, Daniel’s use of his friends – both Jack and Teal’c – for his own ends was really horrific.

While he does seem to forgive Jack’s boorishness in The Other Side, he is not exactly very forgiving of Jack in the wake of Shades of Grey. S9 Spoilers! He retains a definite hostility to Woolsey over their confrontation in Prototype. This might be due to his anger at the lives lost because his suggestion wasn’t followed, or lingering resentment to Woolsey’s tactics in the wake of Janet’s death; but no matter what was the cause, the lack of forgiveness is definitely there.

Daniel has managed some truly diplomatic marvels, including convincing Colonel Chekov to loan the SGC their DHD in 48 Hours (or, as niamaea hilariously puts it, “trading Rodney McKay for the DHD”), keeping the Goa’uld happy on Earth during Fair Game, finding the solution to the crisis between the Gadmeer and the Enkarens in Scorched Earth, and even convincing General Hammond that the SGC had a moral responsibility to help the AU of Point of View. At the same time, though, we have seen Daniel fail spectacularly at diplomacy. The best example of this is Need, when Daniel had been in the sarcophagus only once and was not yet addicted. He sat down to a meal with Shyla and Pyrus, where Shyla did her very best to prompt Daniel into flattering her father and hopefully convincing him to let the rest of the team out of the mines. Instead, Daniel blundered throughout the meal, putting his foot in his mouth with spectacular results – Pyrus stomped away from the table and ordered the rest of SG-1 to be killed. It was Shyla who got him to change that sentence to life-imprisonment.

There’s another aspect where Daniel regularly fails to choose the diplomatic route, and that’s in his dealings with the military. The man speaks twenty-three languages, but he can’t bother to master hand signals? He’s immersed nearly 24/7 in the military culture of the SGC, but he doesn’t know how to deal with officers without antagonizing them? He’s still doing it in Enemy Mine, after seven years. Daniel really should know better. He must know better, which leads me to conclude that he doesn’t really bother to try – most probably because of his dislike for the military’s culture and mores, whether or not his attitude is fully justified.

How “angelic” can Daniel be, when he was the one who pointed out the “no consequences” angle to Teal’c and Jack in Window of Opportunity? He did it twice – once during the loop, and once when the loop was broken. Kind of makes you wonder what Daniel would have done if he’d been stuck in the loop, doesn’t it?

Conclusion: While Daniel certainly has many admirable traits, he also possesses lots of not-so-admirable ones. And we love him for it. :)

That covers the more positive aspects of sainthood. Since this post is so long, I've continued it over here.

Comments

[hsapiens.livejournal.com]

I bid a warm welcome to you newcomers

Awwwww...thank you. :)

I think I've fallen in love with you. I don't have time to reply in the depth and with the thought that I want to at this precise moment -- and I have another round of socializing scheduled for tonight -- but I will return to discuss this. I've desperately wanted to find people who loved and appreciated the entire team and have intelligent discussions. I've looked for YEARS now and had finally given up and decided to enjoy the pretty actors.

Thank you! (If this is part 11, I'm guessing that means I have 10 parts to trawl your LJ for. This is like Christmas AND my birthday combined. Woo hoo!)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Whew! Thanks for the kind words. ::blushes::

Please do return for discussion when you can - it's the back and forth in the comments that I enjoy the most, even (or maybe especially!) when someone disagrees.

If you really want to see the other posts, they're all tagged as canon vs fanon, so they shouldn't be hard to find. :)

[cyren-2132.livejournal.com]

Very insightful, as always. Heading over to part 2 now, but thought I'd point that you've got Daniel smoothing ruffled fathers in this last example, and while that could be amusing, it could also be quite disturbing. :O)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Okay, that was a laugh to last the rest of the day. :) :)

Will fix that typo, althought I have this sudden, persistent scene in my head of some kind of feathered natives angry at Jack for teaching their kids to fish instead of doing their chores, and Daniel is smoothing down their feathers as he calms them down...

Back to reality, I think! :)

[maevebran.livejournal.com]

New Order. He finally tells Elizabeth to call him Daniel – after they’ve been working together for several weeks.
This is the one that drives me nuts. Daniel and Elizabeth were calling each other by their first names All through New Order but in Pegasus Project when she is talking just to Daniel it "Dr. Jackson"? What the frell? Daniel does refer to her as "Elizabeth" once but mostly it is "Dr. Wier". Did they have a fight or something in the interviening two years or what? They both had respect for each other and had exchanged first names and are inclined to call people by the names the person desires so why the formality? (Sorry this and the use of the Canadian phrasing of 'Grade five' vs. the more American 'Fifth Grade' are my two pet peeves with the Pegasus Project.)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Because the writers can be really annoying? :)

If I needed to try and give an in-story explanation... Hm. Daniel wants to reinforce her authority in Pegasus by showing her respectful formality? Elizabeth isn't quite sure about how to treat Daniel in front of Vala, Queen of Innuendo, and decides she'd rather be formal than have to face a new crop of rumors?

Inconsistency seems to be the name of the game. The fun for us is writing fanfic to fix things. :)

[maevebran.livejournal.com]

Yeah I know writers forget things. I like your explanation. It does make sense on both their parts.

I wrote a short tag to Pegasus Project that specualted Daniel and Elizabeth had had a relationship and broke up after Daniel missed the Deadalus so that was why the formality. But yes Fan fic fixes many things.

[redbyrd-sgfic.livejournal.com]

See, this doesn't really bug me. In a largely professional friendship in a culture (the military) where formal address is the rule, I can see someone calling their coworker by their first name in a 'private' conversation but referring to them by their title in person.

In my company, the CEO is often called "Mr." in large-group discussions, but in email, or meetings of the management team he's just "Pete".

For me, that accounts for the variation in names at the SGC more than adequately. I've even done it in fic- I have one of the military guys who has worked with Daniel several times calling him by his first name in a private conversation, but addressing him by title when he's giving out team assignments.

Do we have anyone here from academia, who can comment on when in an academic setting people use titles vs. not? That might have some bearing on the discussion.

One thing I *think* I've noted is that Daniel is more likely to leave off his title in the later seasons. I fanwank this as he felt he needed the title to enhance his authority amongst the military types in earlier seasons, but now a) he's got bigger things on his mind and or b) he takes a degree of respect for granted because of his seniority at the SGC.

[green-grrl.livejournal.com]

Once again, you've done a fabulous job of pulling together the things that are always nebuously floating around my brain, and now I can point and say, "That! Thank you!"

There’s another aspect where Daniel regularly fails to choose the diplomatic route, and that’s in his dealings with the military.

Ooo, this is one that I do randomly meta in other people's journals about -- maybe I should write it up someday... I think that when Daniel is faced with foreign/alien cultures, he puts on his anthropology hat, and does his best to see the others' point of view. (Well, as long as the others aren't the enslaving, subjugating type.) But as someone who was raised (mostly?) in the United States, and strongly encultured in American liberal academia, I think when he came in, he didn't view the military as another culture, but just assumed that he knew all about it. And he brought his assumption of the military as single-mindedly focused on violence as a solution (not entirely without merit), which made him adversarial from the start. He and Jack and he and Hammond had some pretty spectacular go-rounds at the beginning.

Over time, Daniel was able to influence the mission and culture of the SGC to recognize the broader mission of being Earth's representatives in the galaxy. At the same time, the military (Jack) was also able to show to him that there are people out there who aren't the least bit interested in knowledge and sharing, and that sometimes a P-90 is the answer. I see a lot of the frustrations between Jack and Daniel in s4-5 as both of them being forced to play their "roles" as the Colonel and the Diplomacy Advocate, when each knows that the other has a valid point. Beast of Burden is the quintessential episode of this.

I could argue that Enemy Mine is as much about Colonel Edwards' insufficient grasp of the SGC culture as opposed to Daniel's lack of respect for the military (or at least the SGC version of the military). Because Daniel has seven years of experience telling him that understanding alien cultures saves lives. The SGC agrees -- the procedures say that artifacts are supposed to be left in situ until the scientists can determine they mean. Daniel is arrogant to the mining team, yes. But his arrogance is in not cutting Edwards any slack for being more standard military than SGC military -- he wanted Edwards conformed to the scientist/soldier way of doing things yesterday, and screw him if he wouldn't get it. (And apparently Lorne learned his SGC lesson well enough to be trusted to go to Atlantis. ;-)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, yes. I do like this theory of yours: it doesn't occur to Daniel that the military is a culture of its own, because its an integral part of his own culture, with his prejudices already built-in. Still, he's had years to deal with it up close and personal. And yes, I LOVE Beast of Burden and don't understand why it's not an absolute favorite of Jack and Daniel fans. I know of only a single ep tag to that one.

Enemy Mine bothered me because it was a step backward, much as The Sentinel was. Even NID idiots ought to know that Dr. Jackson shouldn't be underestimated. By the same token, Edwards should have recognized that this was Daniel's turf, and act accordingly. At the same time, though, Daniel is intelligent enough to see hostility and adjust his attitude accordingly... and he didn't. Yeah. It's the arrogance thing. And we love him for it, don't we? :)

[green-grrl.livejournal.com]

I know most of the J/D cohort loves Beast of Burden, though we tend to meta on it rather than fic it.

Edwards must be new to the SGC -- that's the only thing I can think of. And since Daniel is Jack's and Hammond's golden boy, he knows he can get away with being a snot and saying, "You have to listen to me. I'm right. End of story." Yay for snottiness! The hieroglyphics translation scene in the movie is one of my favorite character moments. :-D

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

If you know of any non-slash-specific meta about BoB, I'd love to read it.

Edwards must be new to the SGC -- that's the only thing I can think of.

Do you really think a newcomer would be given command of an SG team? OTOH, he did seem to be Vidrine's mouthpiece, so to speak, so you might be right.

But hee, YES! I love how Daniel is so confident about his authority there. And so irritating. I love irritating Daniel. :)

The hieroglyphics translation scene in the movie is one of my favorite character moments.

Especially with the guy who did the original translation mumbling, "Uh... I did," and Daniel not even blinking an eye or apologizing. That's my Daniel, quirks and all.

[redbyrd-sgfic.livejournal.com]

I thought Beast of Burden was an excellent ep that made a bunch of ambiguous themes work very well- so well I don't feel like I have to *fix* it!

Hmm- y'know, given that he's in charge of a *mining* operation, isn't it likely that Edwards is some kind of civil engineer type, rather than an SGC first-contact team veteran?

I can just see him being transferred because of his technical specialty and getting briefed:

"You want me to run a mining operation?" Edwards had built dozens of temporary airfields, buildings and even worked on a dam, but mining was a new one. "Why don't you just bring in civilian contractors?"

The shorter man folded his hand over the pile of as-yet unopened briefing documents with an expression Edwards could only describe as a smirk. "There are...security...concerns."

Edwards didn't buy that. They'd contracted civilians for work in plenty of dangerous areas in the past. "Where is this mine?"

The other man..what was his name again? Oh, Ferretti- smiled. "That's where the security comes in, Colonel. It's on a planet we call P3X-403."

For a three-count, Edwards actually thought he was serious. Then he forced a brief smile. "Very funny, colonel."

"I'm serious," the other man insisted. He took the manila folder stamped 'Top Secret' and slid it across the table.

Colonel Edwards wondered who had put this practical joker in charge of briefings. Then he opened the folder. Okay, this was more than a joke. Clearly the guy was cracked. He'd actually faked up military documents to support this gag. "This is ridiculous," he said.

Ferretti stood. "Ridiculous or not, colonel, these are your briefing documents. You and your team are scheduled for orientation exercises at Cheyenne Mountain starting at 0800 tomorrow. And you'll be commanding a mining team on another planet in two weeks." His expression softened to something like sympathy. "You'll have a chance to see the stargate before you go through. It's really pretty amazing."

He nodded at the pile of documents. "Take your time reading through that, then hand them back to the airman outside. He'll return them to secured storage when you're through."

He left Edwards sitting in the shabby mundane Petersen AFB briefing room with the pile of impossible pictures under his hand. Ferretti had to be insane. Even considering the idea this was real made Edwards a little dizzy. No, definitely, Ferretti was off the deep end. He wondered what the real assignment was. He supposed he'd find out tomorrow.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Whee! I inspired Redbyrd minor-character POV fic snippetage!

You're going to write this fic, aren't you? Aren't you??

And LOL that a really good ep doesn't need all that much in the way of ep tags! Maybe that explains the baffling lack of ep tags for The Fifth Race and Message in a Bottle. [Yes, I know you did the latter. I recced it. :) ]

[theemdash]

By the time he first descends, Daniel is thirty-nine or forty.

Not to be totally nit-picky, but in Season 7 he's thirty-eight or thirty-nine, unless you're counting differently than I am. (I, too, am rather sensitive about how Daniel's age is portrayed.)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Er. I added seven to thirty-two or thirty-three?

2007 is year 10, so 2004 is year 7. He was born in '64 or '65, so in 2004 he would be either 39 or 40. Am I missing something here?

...Oh, of course. Year 7 starts in 2003. :) But it's past July then, isn't it? So he's already had his birthday?

Maybe he turned 39/40 on Vis Uban, in that three-month period. I'll bet he didn't get a birthday present, either!

[theemdash]

Okay, now I'm amused because we actually are counting differently.

Season 10 is going to finish airing in the US in June 2007, which means that it takes place before Daniel's birthday, thus making him 41 or 42 (2006 - 1965 = 41). So that should make him 40 during most of Season 9, 39 during most of Season 8, and 38 during most of Season 7.

But since SG-1 is so non-specific about when things happen during the year, it's certainly an arguable issue, regardless. I just felt the need to explain my thinking. ;)

[sg-wonderland.livejournal.com]

I just wanted to add a little something to the 'Daniel is an angel' piece.
Daniel's cool wave to the about-to-be-fried-beyond-recognition Jaffa in 'Maternal Instinct.' That had to be one of the harshest, coldest things I've ever seen Daniel do.

And how about his almost casual dismissal of Melosha's impending rape in 'The Broca Divide'? Given what he has to know is happening to his own wife at this point, you'd think he'd have a little more sympathy for the poor woman; it is left to Sam to voice the repulsiveness of the scene.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Having fun wandering around, are you? :) Nice points, both of these!

Daniel in Maternal Instinct fascinates me, because that is SUCH a fraught moment. I don't know how harsh and cold it was, to be honest, because Daniel's mind must have been such a confusing welter of emotions at that moment. He's given up the child; he's watched the monk die; he's recognized that Oma is doing everything, not him; and he's just finished begging Jack to put his weapon down so that Daniel won't be the only one to walk out of this alive. So yes, he seemed perfectly calm, and the little wave of the hand was indeed rather creepy; but considering this is Sha're's boy they're trying to take, and his friends (and himself!) they're trying to kill...? I think they'd tripped over his "we come in peace" line to his "these creatures need to be killed RIGHT NOW" line. It doesn't happen often, but when it does... duck. :)

And yes, Melosha in Broca Divide. Good choice, that. Part of me lumps it with the two examples I gave above - that Daniel can let scientific fascination trump his essential humanity ("Daniel thinks it's fascinating" about Kawalsky's Goa'uld and suggests he take a look at it; he almost stays behind in ToT). Another part of me wonders, from the way his voice stumbled over his explanation in Broca, if he was actually quite uneasy about it and was trying to rationalize it. I suppose we can take it either way... or possibly an element of both.

I will say, though, that Daniel did not realize, at that point, that Goa'uld were interested in sexual pursuits with their hosts. I'd say that their first suggestion of this was Hathor, and the first real confirmation of it was Secrets. Broca was only the fourth or fifth episode; there was a lot they hadn't yet realized at that point.

[sg-wonderland.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm home sick from work so I've been doing alot of wandering around. I thought this was fascinating, the whole thing really. Lots of viewpoints, lots of people seeing the same thing from such different perspectives.
I don't know if you've seen 'Unending' but there is a Daniel/Vala scene that is just brutal in its intensity, yet to me, is so right, is so Daniel. I've seen folks shrieking in horror at that but it works for me.

[vikki.livejournal.com]

Daniel is so self-effacing that he has everyone call him Daniel, and he's on a first-name basis with everyone he meets.

On a slightly random note, I kind of can't help but think that I can imagine - and have a hard time not imagining - Daniel as the kind of person who has a dialogue like this at, say, the DMV:

Receptionist: Mr. Jackson?
Daniel: Doctor Jackson, yes.

Not mean about it, but okay, if he in fact went to university at age 16 (and is that canon or fanon? I don't know), then he spent a LONG TIME earning that title and people are damned well gonna use it. While I wouldn't say Daniel is snooty about his education in the traditional sense, he is snooty about the knowledge that title inherently comes with, and I'd argue that whether or not he'd say it aloud, Daniel is probably convinced he's one of the most gifted archeologists/liguists on the planet. That's what shines out when he basically disses the translation of the coverstone in the movie, and in his attitude towards Nick's theories, and when he irritably tells Jack he speaks 23 languages, etc.

He knows he's good. I think he feels like he deserves his title and probably, like most Doctorate-level graduates, wants to be graced with it in social interaction. He just doesn't (generally) rub everyone's face in it. Generally. ;)

PS

[vikki.livejournal.com]

How fanon is it that Daniel really really hates Budge? I'm pretty sure I saw a canon reference for it at one point but I don't remember when/where; and fanon takes it to its usual fannish extremes, I expect.

Re: PS

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

It's absolute canon from the movie; I'm not sure if it's mentioned specifically on the show.

Yes, it does tend to be just a leetle bit exaggerated! :) OTOH, I believe Daniel is not alone in his contempt for Budge; it seems to be widely panned in many archeological circles (but not all, possibly). So it's a fun quirk that fits Daniel's archeology mode, and a nice shorthand for infusing it with extra personality.

I'd call it canon that is exaggerated into fanon, I guess. At the very least, there's absolutely nothing that contradicts it.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Heh, yes, Daniel knows he's good. His arrogance charms me because it's so annoying. :)

Now, I haven't earned a doctorate, and I know that there are many academics that take their title very seriously indeed. However, my personal opinion is that Daniel is much more concerned about his academic title in a professional setting than in social interaction. I could very well be wrong. But I can more easily imagine Sam or Jack or Teal'c sharply correcting a casual stranger - "That's Doctor Jackson" - than Daniel doing it himself.

As I said, it's strictly a personal opinion. I agree that Daniel worked very hard for his degrees and would care about seeing it acknowledged, much as someone in the military would want to have their rank acknowledged. (Can't you just see Simmons or Kinsey calling Sam "Dr. Carter" as a slur of sorts, rather than Captain/Major/Colonel?) And I'd add that after being so thoroughly mocked in his final public lecture, he'd want that acknowledgement of his credentials, yes. But I just can't see him caring if his plumber or a waiter calls him "Mr. Jackson."

Also, I will point out that I'm only a few years younger than Daniel (the same age as MS, actually) and I grew up with the idea that an adult deserves the courtesy of a title - even if that title is "Mister." Casual first-name basis seems pretty rude to me, without getting an invitation first.

Regarding the 16-year-old thing - it's what I like to call "apocryphal," from the novelization of the movie. (check out part 10 of canon vs. fanon, heh.)

[vikki.livejournal.com]

Daniel's arrogance charms me as well, partially because it's annoying but also because he's so freaking casual about it - I mean, he really isn't doing it just to remind you of his superiority, he's just sure he's right and he's not sorry and he'll argue the point to death with you until he's proven wrong. ... Or right.

Working in the restaurant business as a server, when I get people who have earned doctorates at my table (which isn't all that often, granted), they usually will inform me they're a doctor when I say 'Mr.' or 'Ms.' upon handing them their credit card. (They're also quite charmed if a notation on their card allows me to know to call them 'Doctor' without correction.) A lot of them are snobs about it, but sometimes it's almost a more absentminded answer, a casual correction. I could see Daniel doing this more absent-minded version - not in a one-on-one interaction, maybe, but to a receptionist for a professional place, say. I don't know. Maybe it's just because I've met too many snobby doctorates. :D Or at least, doctorate-level grads who would like people to realize they spent 10 years in school earning that title. Having not yet met a doc-grad who wasn't likely to remind me of their title, I guess I lump even Daniel into that category. Which is to say, you could be right and I'm just being silly!

Definite 'yes' to the 'you don't call people by their first name without invitation' thing. I've always more or less figured Daniel to be casually disinterested in what people around the base call him, unless he has a vested interest in that party (aka SG-1, Janet, etc), and given the relative formality of a military base the default would be 'title-lastname' so he isn't likely to be surprised by someone else being overly familiar.

I must re-read part 10 of the canon vs. fanon posts! I skimmed it and found I basically just wanted to throw in yet another two cents about his foster family life, so.

On another note, I am really sorry you've been elbows-deep in so many bad fics. I was really lucky when I stumbled on SG-1 a few years back and had a few friends point me to some of the better fic - they still have tropes, but at least they're not overplaying their hands. Some of these concepts just boggle the mind. Seriously, what? Is this the same Daniel?