Canon vs. Fanon, part 7: "No more beer for you."

[fignewton]

Finally, the section you've all been waiting for! …Okay, some of you. At least one or two. Maybe.

We'll make a brief detour into Daniel's junk food habits, but the primary focus of this section will be Daniel and drinking: his preferences, interactions with his teammates, and his capacity for alcohol. This one turned out to be a bit more analytical than some of the others, and the conclusions might be surprising for some. As always, pointers to what I've missed, and discussions/disagreements with my analyses, are more than welcome.

Special thanks to the following people, who helped this non-drinker work out accurate details for the various members of SG-1: aurora_novarum, green_grrl, princessofg, redbyrd_sgfic, and shutthef_up. While much of it is mentioned in the post below, anyone interested in greater details can check out the comments listed here. Any mistakes included in this post are entirely my own.

Recap: Canon is anything shown onscreen in the movie or show; show supersedes movie, when necessary. (Daniel is married to Sha're, not Shau'ri.) Fanon is defined as popular concepts that occur regularly in fanfic, but have little or no actual canon basis to defend them.

Daniel is a junk-food junkie, and goes into raptures about anything chocolate.

Interestingly, this bit of fanon has some solid basis to it – but the canon is in the movie, which is rarely used for referral by Stargate fanfic writers. In the movie, before Daniel has his breakthrough, the camera pans on a view of his very messy desk, which includes a granola bar and some kind of salty snack. Of course, if we logically consider his lifestyle before he met Katherine – living on college campus long enough to earn two or three doctorates, and months or years spent on digs – Daniel was quite likely living more on junkfood than managing decent meals. There's no canon for this, but it's certainly reasonable.

Most of all, there's the sheer hilarity of a person stepping across the event horizon, on a journey that has never, to his knowledge, been undertaken in the last several centuries, ready to face the utter unknown without being absolutely positive that he can ever come back… and carrying a stash of Fifth Avenue bars in his pocket. It doesn't matter how useful that turned out to be, when Daniel was able to offer a candy bar to Kasuf. The simple fact that he took Fifth Avenue bars along with him? That is a man addicted to chocolate. :)

Surprisingly enough, however, the movie really is the last clear canon proof of Daniel and chocolate. On any occasions in the series when we see Daniel eating something outside a meal – and, as noted in a previous post, that doesn't happen very often – it's most often an energy bar of some kind, whether or not it's chocolate covered. He seems to have a tendency towards snacking on nuts, as well. But chocolate? We get vaguely close to it twice: in Forever In a Day, when, in his dream/vision, Sam brings him "those chocolate walnut cookies that you like so much"; and in The First Ones, when Daniel ever-so-politely declines the offering of roasted symbiote head. Instead, he pulls out an energy bar, unwraps it, pantomimes – much as he did in the movie – how good it tastes, and offers it to Chaka. As Chaka happily eats it, Daniel's face splits into a grin as he tells him, "Y'know, I met my father-in-law like this."

That's it, people.

Compare this with the regular fanon theme of Daniel absentmindedly reaching into a drawer to raid his stash for a chocolate bar instead of eating a meal, or Jack bribing him away from his desk by waving a candy bar, or team members bringing him chocolate and candy in the infirmary. Does this contradict canon? Of course not. Is it supported by canon? Yes, but only up to a point; and that point is left panting in the dust by the overwhelming frequency of chocolate fanon in fanfics.

It can be suggested, perhaps, that only movie-era and long-haired Daniel was a junk-food junkie, and Daniel eventually moved away from chocolate and candy to the more practical power bar – a natural evolution, as he developed into more of a soldier than the geeky archeologist that lived on snack food. But that's only a suggestion, as much of a fanon extrapolation as Daniel's love for chocolate. So that doesn't really help very much, does it?

Conclusion: While Stargate: The Movie offers solid canon that Daniel likes chocolate and junk food, and there is nothing in the series that actually contradicts this, Daniel's love for chocolate, as portrayed in fanon, is largely exaggerated.

Time to take a look at Daniel and alcohol!

I will preface this section by pointing out that we don't actually get much of a chance to see our gang in an atmosphere where casual drinking is possible. I don't have personal experience with the military, but I would question whether alcohol is permitted on base altogether, much less whether it would be permissible to drink it when on duty. Daniel, of course, is a civilian; but if alcohol is verboten at the SGC, he won't have it there. That makes a certain closing scene in S9 a bit questionable, but they're both in civvies at the time, it's definitely after hours, and, as they both say, it's been a "bad day." So we're more or less restricted to times when SG-1 is either off-world or off-duty; and since any drinking off-world is to keep the natives happy and won't involve personal choice, it'll mostly be off-duty, of which we sadly didn't get as much as we might have wanted.

There are several common fanon themes for this topic, with an extra nod to our favorite Jaffa:

Daniel is a lightweight when it comes to alcohol, getting tipsy after only a beer or two; Teal'c either doesn't bother drinking or drinks to excess, because his symbiote metabolizes alcohol so quickly it negates the effects.

Daniel doesn't like beer, and drinks it only to keep Jack company, and only because Jack insists on it.

Daniel only likes expensive imported beers (or unusual ones), and is constantly trying to "educate" Jack, whose taste in beers is far beneath Daniel's.

Yes, I know the latter two contradict each other. :) But they're both frequently found in fanfics, so they both deserve to be listed here.

Let's start with the first fanon assertion: Daniel as a lightweight with little tolerance for alcohol. We'll get to Teal'c shortly.

At first glance, this one seems to be solidly based on canon. After all, it's one of the best scenes in COTG,  isn't it? Jack takes Daniel home after the devastating attack on Abydos, and the two of them talk quietly about life on Abydos, about Sha're, about Sara divorcing Jack.

"This is going straight to my head… What time is it, anyway? I must have Gate lag, or something."

"For crying out loud, Daniel, you've had one beer. You're a cheaper date than my wife was."

But that's only a casual glance at the scene. I would suggest that looking at the dialogue and the actions on a deeper level offers an entirely different interpretion – one with some solid canon backing.

Daniel is a master of words, and has always capable of deflecting the conversation away from what he wants (or dragging it back to what he wants). We see this at the beginning of Meridian, when Jack tried to insist that Daniel tell him what happened and Daniel turned the conversation off on a tangent to the dangers inherent in the naquadriah experiments; we see it again in the way he avoided telling his teammates any of the more sordid details about Nick at the beginning of the episode in Crystal Skull.

Now, consider the topic of conversation: Abydos. Sha're. Painful, intimate subjects. He's already made one attempt to lighten their talk by diverting Jack to "grinding yaffetta flour"; now, he is changing the topic again, by voicing a non sequitur and getting Jack off the subject of Abydos entirely. Picture the scene in your mind (or watch the ep again. Really, go ahead. I don't mind, and you probably won't either.) "Well, if it weren't for Sha're, I'd…" Daniel's sudden realization that his automatically casual reference to Sha're can never be so automatic again; the way he stops, and sits, and takes a deep breath before he approaches the subject again, only this time, from an entirely different angle. That's avoidance, that's closing off, and the comment about the beer going straight to his head only served to change the topic of conversation entirely. How quickly did Daniel seize on Jack's words to turn the subject over to Jack and Sara, rather than himself and Sha're?

So the question really is: Was Daniel's statement wholly sincere, or just a distraction? My own analysis of the entire scene – including facial expressions and body language as well as the actual dialogue – is that Daniel was more interested in changing the subject than actually expressing a statement of fact.

Fast-forward past over seven years of casual drinking onscreen – without any mention that Daniel is automatically the designated driver, since he can't handle even one bottle of beer – before we come to the absolutely delightful scene in Lost City, part 1, in Jack's living room. That scene is one to be cherished, especially for its rarity value – it served no other purpose than teamy goodness, and how often did we get that in the later seasons of the show?

So here we have Jack and Sam in armchairs, and Teal'c and Daniel on the sofa. The team is busy discussing Jack's insistence of comparing characters from The Simpsons to the Goa'uld (disclaimer – I've never seen an episode of The Simpsons, so forgive me if I'm getting that wrong). Daniel is a bit pre-occupied with carefully balancing an orange on his beer bottle. Teal'c calmly points out that The Simpsons are only cartoon characters, Jack dismisses Teal'c's opinion as being shallow, and Daniel lets the orange tumble onto the sofa as he bursts into one of the most charming defenses of Teal'c, ever:

"Oh, please! Teal'c's like one of the deepest people I know. He's so deep. Come on, tell them how deep you are! You'll be lucky if you understand this."

(Again, feel free to pull out the episode to watch a Daniel almost giddy with excitement at Teal'c's "deepness.")

Teal'c… looks at Daniel, and announces, "My depth is immaterial to this conversation."

"Ooooooh!" Scrunched up, triumphant in his victory: "See?"

"No more beer for you."

As I said, it's a lovely, lovely scene. And it's certainly canon proof that Daniel, at the very least, has a lower tolerance of alcohol than Sam and Jack, who have probably been drinking a similar number of beers during the same timeframe as Daniel. But it's after seven years of Stargate before we get this canon proof; and we don't know how long the team has been sitting there, or how many beers were consumed, or even if Daniel ate any of the doughnuts, or was drinking on an empty stomach. It's certainly been long enough for the seating arrangements to change, the doughnuts to disappear, and pizza to be ordered with the expectation that it would arrive. The scene shift between Daniel and Teal'c's arrival and the "Burns as Goa'uld" discussion leaves us guessing; it could have been only one hour, or as long as three or four. It's certainly unlikely that Daniel was still on his first bottle of beer. In addition, they're all drinking Guinness, which is a heavier beer than most and has a higher alcoholic content.

I would suggest that that the incident in COTG is not really sufficient proof, unless it's matched with this scene. And because there's such a long gap between the two, and we've seen Daniel drinking on other occasions without being utterly drunk, and I tend to be a bit skeptical about later canon actually being influenced by fanon, I would conclude that Daniel is not quite the lightweight that fanon would suggest. Yes, he does have a lower tolerance for alcohol than Jack and Sam; but that doesn't mean he gets plastered after a single bottle of beer. If that were the case, he would be as much of a teetotaller as Teal'c (more on this shortly) except for very rare occasions, and canon clearly shows that he isn't.

Let's take a look at that, shall we? Aside from the aforementioned COTG and Lost City, Daniel drinks beer, or suggests it, on four (six?) separate occasions, as listed in the next section. Other than that, we see Daniel with alcohol on four different occasions. While three of them actually take place outside our reality/timeline (as detailed here), the concept of Daniel drinking can't be as easily dismissed.

COTG. This one is quite iffy, but I can't ignore it entirely. When Skaara offers Jack some "moonshine," Jack looks across at Daniel and asks, "Daniel, what are you teaching these kids?" Daniel and Sha're only look amused. Jack is clearly suggesting that Daniel is the one to introduce fermented liquor to Abydos, but there is absolutely no way to tell if Jack is being facetious or not. How could Jack know that there wasn't alcohol on Abydos before Daniel's arrival there? He certainly wasn't around long enough the first time to get a true understanding of their dietary preferences, lizard-that-tastes-like-chicken notwithstanding. And I personally find it hard to believe that a society evolved without someone inventing a way to get drunk. :) So, while "moonshine" can't really be used as proof either way, a fanfic author is welcome to take Jack literally if it suits the story.

2010. Daniel clinks glasses and drinks champagne with everyone else; later, at dinner, he has an empty wineglass at his place.

Absolute Power. He opens champagne to celebrate the successful launch. Like everything else in that dream/vision, Daniel's choice of champagne is based on power and the status symbols of power, which, as shutthef_up suggested, is probably why he chooses a brand that costs "two thousand dollars a bottle."

Chimera. Sarah/Osiris prepares a romantic, candlelit dinner, complete with wine, in Daniel's dream.

So yes, Daniel drinks wine, and beer. Contrast this with his teammates:

Teal'c, as aurora_novarum pointed out, doesn't drink. Period. Yes, there's fanon that suggests his symbiote can negate the effects of alcohol, but that's just that – fanon. We see Teal'c avoiding alcohol on a number of occasions:

Fire and Water. Jack offers Teal'c a beer at the wake. Teal'c says, "I must refrain." I know he just told Sam that on Chulak, mourning includes a three-day fast; but since Jack's next words are, "There's food upstairs," and Teal'c doesn't refuse that, he was clearly referring to the alcohol.

The Other Side. On Euronda, each member of SG-1 is offered a glass (of rather awkward design) for a toast. Teal'c refuses, explaining that he does not drink alcohol, giving Alar an excuse to chalk up yet another bad mark against him.

2010. While this didn't actually happen in our timeline, Teal'c still isn't drinking, even after the Goa'uld are defeated and his tattoo is gone. When the others toast General Hammond with champagne, Teal'c is holding a glass of fruit juice; later, at the dinner table, he's still drinking juice.

Lost City. Sam hands Teal'c a glass of juice just before the wonderful depth discussion.

Then there's Sam. Sam agrees to a beer in Fire and Water; she drinks a light beer in Upgrades; Orlin offers her wine in Ascension; she drinks beer in Lost City. (I might be missing a few canon incidents, so please point them out if you know of any.)

Jack's preferences in beer and spirits will be further detailed in a later section; for the purpose of this comparison, it is sufficient to say that in Citizen Joe, Sam suggested that Jack's likely secret ingredient to omelettes was "beer" for a reason.

So, if we needed to compare the drinking habits of all four members of SG-1, where would Daniel fit? Not with teetotaller Teal'c, but with Jack and Sam.

Conclusion: While Daniel has a lower tolerance for alcohol than Jack and Sam, he is not quite the complete lightweight that fanon would suggest. Teal'c, on the other hand, does not drink alcohol. Period.

Let's move to the second common fanon assertion, that Daniel hates beer and drinks it only because Jack expects it of him.

This concept has even less standing than the first, in that there's only one canon incident from which it's derived. Granted, it's a most memorable (and painful) scene; but, like that conversation in COTG, I would suggest that Daniel's words should not be taken wholly at face value.

Let's examine the setting of the scene closely, taking it entirely from Daniel's POV. (And, yes! I'm perfectly happy to wait while you go and watch it, if you'd like!) Whether or not the team has actually drawn straws – and I've read some excellent arguments for both sides – Daniel is the one who comes, alone, to face Jack and try to get some answers. He rings the bell and waits for Jack to answer it. Jack opens the door, but stands directly in the doorway, clearly blocking Daniel from entering.

Daniel tries a tentative, "Hi." Jack's hostile reply – "What do you want?" – is as much of a barrier as his physical blocking of the door. The rest of Daniel's dialogue at the door serves a single purpose – to actually get inside, where he hopes he can talk Jack into some kind of sense. Is Daniel actually interested in drinking beer at that moment? No, of course not; what interests him is getting through the door and through Jack's defenses. And since that's the only purpose the beer actually serves…

"So, how are you feeling about all this?" The falsely casual tone makes it clear that Daniel has reached the main import of his visit.

"Yes to the beer. No to the feelings."

Quietly muttered: "That's too bad, because I don't really like beer."

Jack himself seems to recognize that the dismissal of the beer isn't out of dislike, but out of concern for Daniel's true intentions, because his very next words are, "Stop your worrying. I'm fine."

My analysis of the scene is this: Daniel's likes or dislikes for beer are immaterial to the conversation, to paraphrase Teal'c. Daniel used the request for beer to get into the house and try to get Jack to start talking; and since Jack insisted that "yes to the beer, not to the feelings," the beer no longer served any purpose for Daniel, and he was therefore uninterested in drinking it.

A single point of data can't really serve as proof, especially when there are other points of data that contradict it. Do we other canon incidents in which Daniel seems perfectly happy to drink beer? Yes, certainly. Two of them have already been detailed: COTG, and Lost City. Besides those two, there are others:

Upgrades. As discussed in a previous section, the team's behavior under the influence of the armbands was affected in terms of restraint and control, but not in terms of taste preferences. In the scene at O'Malley's, Daniel is shown drinking a darker beer than Sam and Jack.

Evolution, part 1. As Daniel and Lee make their way towards the café for the planned rondezvous with Rogelio, Bill asks Daniel what they will do if Rogelio doesn't show up. Daniel cheerfully replies, "Well, we'll have a few beers, make a few friends…" While they don't have the opportunity to do any drinking, Daniel's casual proposal hardly suggests a dislike for beer.

Threads/Moebius. When Daniel and Teal'c carry the cooler between them and set it on the dock, Daniel pulls out two beers – one for himself, and one for Jack. (You can include 200 in this if you really want to.) Actually, it seems to me that Daniel is only carrying one bottle in Threads, but it's hard to be sure. If I'm right, it opens the door for some truly fascinating speculation on how the timeline was changed – even if it was "close enough" – so that Daniel either doesn't want to drink a beer himself, or isn't interested in offering one to Jack. :) (ETA: Hm. It looks like he reaches both hands into the cooler to pull out beer, so it probably was two. Ah, well.)

Season Nine Spoiler! Ethon. Mitchell brings Daniel a can of beer in the closing scene of the show. It's a Coors Light, which isn't a very high quality brand. Daniel hesitates before drinking it, but he does drink it; and considering his evident preference for darker, higher-quality brews, the hestiation might be either because he doesn't care much for Coors Light, he's unsure about drinking on the base, or the unhappy news the two of them have just discussed leaves him uninterested in drinking at all. In the end, the two of them toast each other: "Bad day." As several people commented, it seems only reasonable to salute the lousy day with lousy beer. :)

(As an aside, I will say that there is something very… Cameron about the way that Mitchell goes to all the trouble to bring AU Daniel just the right blend of coffee in Ripple Effect, but he brings Daniel a cheap can of cheap beer here in Ethon. It seems to fit him, somehow. And I'm quite charmed by it, for some reason I don't really understand.) End Season Nine Spoiler.

Conclusion: While Daniel might not be quite as fond of beer as Jack seems to be, he doesn't dislike drinking it at all.

Finally, we have the contrasting fanon opinion that Daniel resists Jack's beer because it's beneath his tastes. This one has even less canon backing than the previous one.

Let's look first at what we know about Daniel's beer preferences:

He accepts a second bottle of beer from Jack in COTG and drinks a swallow. (Yes, that's his second bottle of beer, not his first. Jack would not say, "Daniel, you've had one beer," when Daniel is taking his first swallow from the bottle – unless Daniel is actually on his second bottle.) This beer has been identified as Moosehead, which is a Canadian import that is a bit darker and heavier than many American beers.

He refuses a beer in Shades of Grey. The beer in question is Budweiser. Since Daniel says he "doesn't like beer" and not that he "doesn't like Budweiser," you either have to take it as a general dismissal of beer – which we've already debunked – or not wanting to drink at that moment, as I suggested in my analysis above. And since Daniel seems perfectly willing to drink the same brand in Moebius/Threads…

We next see Daniel drinking in Upgrades, at O'Malley's. His glass is filled with a beer that is clearly darker than Sam's or Jack's. After that, we need to jump three more seasons to Lost City, where he has clearly been quite happily drinking Jack's Guinness, which is a dark, higher-quality beer.

He hesitates before he drinks a Coors Light with Mitchell; but, as stated earlier, the reasons for this could range from dislike of the taste to not wanting to drink on base to not being in the mood to drink anything at all. But it would fit with Daniel's tastes to attribute it to a dislike for the brand.

Conclusion: When Daniel drinks beer, he prefers darker ones. This part of the fanon, at least, is true: Daniel does have a taste for more expensive, better-quality beers.

Now, let's take a look at Jack's drinking habits, which are astonishingly diverse.

He has Moosehead in his home in COTG; he has a bottle of the same brand in Fire and Water, and offers some (in a can, though, not a bottle) to Sam, who accepts.

In Upgrades, he is drinking a lighter beer than Daniel; he also has a shot of something, which we can presume is Scotch – since that's what Kinsey helped himself to when he raided Jack's liquor in Full Alert. (That was Dewar's, by the way, which has been identified as a good-quality blended Scotch.)

In Fragile Balance, the detritus of his dinner the night before (and hoo boy is "detritus" the right word there) include two bottles of what seems to be called Island Gold and a bottle of red wine. "Island Gold" is probably a lighter beer, considering its name.

He and the team – and Hammond! – all drink Guinness in Lost City. Jack is also drinking Guinness in Paradise Lost.

Jack is carrying a case of Heinekin, a better-quality brand, at the beginning of Citizen Joe.

In Threads/Moebius, he and Daniel both drink Budweiser, the same brand Jack was drinking in Shades of Grey.

Conclusion: Jack doesn't need educating about the different quality of beers. He has a broad palate, and probably chooses brands according to his moods, what's on the menu, or possibly even what's for sale at the moment. :)

Final Conclusion: While Daniel does prefer darker beers, so does Jack. Jack also prefers lighter ones, and Scotch, and wines on occasion. Daniel is not trying to "reform" Jack's tastes.

My personal fanon opinion? These concepts are actually a classic case of fanon: a single point or two of data in canon is seized upon and exaggerated beyond recognition, or, in the case of beer-drinking, twisted out of context. Yes, Daniel likes chocolate – a lot. But he isn't a chocolate addict. He does like beer on occasion; he prefers darker ones, and he has no need to "educate" Jack on the quality of beers, since Jack is a big boy and is perfectly capable of drinking good-quality alcohol when he feels like it.

As for Teal'c… I have no idea where the "symbiote metabolizes alcohol" fanon came from, but it's so pervasive that I assumed it was true until it was pointed out that canon contradicts it. So no, Teal'c doesn't drink. He can play "designated driver" all he wants, though, because yes, Daniel will get tipsy faster than the others… but not as much as fanon would suggest.

"Anyway, I'm sorry, but that just happens to be how I feel about it. What do you think?"

Comments

[redbyrd-sgfic.livejournal.com]

Gosh, am I really first here?!

I have a fanwank for COTG scene- that there was a severe time change between Abydos and Colorado, and part of the reason Daniel might have been more affected is he was already tired. I think Jack and the others leave in the AM (can't recall if this is explicit in the episode), but on Abydos, they're about to sit down to a meal. So they eat, hike to the Map room, come back to the attack, return to Earth, at some point Daniel changes clothes- nowhere is there any sign that he got any sleep in there. So arguably, his day has been a lot longer than Jack's at the point where they're drinking. And he implies this himself with the comment about gatelag.

Which is not to say that I don't agree that his primary motivation is changing the subject! But that doesn't mean it's not true. If anything I'd expect Daniel to be truthful even when he's changing the subject.

Regarding the moonshine.. I have a theory for this one, too, one I haven't used in a story (yet). It's overwhelmingly probable that the Abydonians have beer, wine or both. Certainly beermaking is a very old craft. Distillation isn't as likely. But there are really really good reasons to want alcohol besides getting drunk. As a disinfectant, for example. A fuel. To make ink. Daniel doesn't have the right mix of skills to start the industrial revolution all by himself, but I can easily see him telling the Abydonians about useful things that he does know about.

Honestly, I feel the evidence in support of Daniel having a lower tolerance at all is pretty weak. Lost City makes the best case, but as you point out, we have no idea how much he's had.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Here's your virtual cookie for being first! Or, considering the topic, maybe it should be a virtual beer? ;)

I don't want to be sidetracked by that intriguing suggestion that Daniel doesn't lie... Okay, sidetrack me. :) Are you suggesting that Daniel always tells the truth, no matter what? Although I most definitely do agree that he was feeling a strong element of "gate lag." I loved that casual reference: "...guard the Gate thirty-six hours a day..." And the implication that an Abydonian year is probably eighteen months or so, not twelve, since Secrets is nearly halfway through S2 and it's supposed to be exactly one Abydonian year from the date of Sha're's abduction.. And it was suppertime there, and then they came tearing through the Gate, and hours must have gone past before Jack takes Daniel home; it's long enough for Ferretti to be out of surgery, after all, and for Jack to have been debriefed and change into civvies.

So, yeah. Daniel was probably honest about the gatelag... but still, as you agree, changing the subject.

I also think you're quite right, that it makes a lot of sense for Daniel to introduce alcohol to Abydos - if it wasn't there yet. While I didn't know alcohol is used in ink (really??), it certainly has enough uses. And maybe he wanted to know there was a safe way to sterilize things before Sha're got pregnant...? All sorts of possibilities, as you suggest. However, we don't know. Which is kinda the point I wanted to make. :) But I certainly do hope that Daniel introduced them to innovations that fit their level of technology, but could improve their lives! Better harnesses? Better cooking ovens? Papyrus, maybe? I'm sure he was enthusiastic about teaching them how to read!

[(Anonymous)]

Are you suggesting that Daniel always tells the truth, no matter what?

No, of course not. But I don't see him going out of his way to make something up, either. He's got a good reason for being distracted- why make something up when the truth works just as well. There's a great scene in a S9 episode where he sits down with a Chinese diplomat and she goes off on international politics, and he says, 'actually, I was talking about the food'.

This is actually a pretty good topic for fanon vs. canon actually.

But I think there's ample evidence that he will lie. Summit, obviously. But surely if he was a habitual liar, he'd be better at it?

[redbyrd-sgfic.livejournal.com]

While I didn't know alcohol is used in ink (really??)

Okay, I had to go look this up.. I had a vague recollection that it was used because it dries quickly. As it turns out, historically, not so much. Gum arabic seems to have been popular, which probably isn't available on Abydos. A lot of inks used various mineral compounds. Alcohol is used in a few ink recipes, though, and it's generally useful for dissolving things that aren't soluble in water.

if it wasn't there yet.

Alcohol was overwhelmingly likely to be available on Abydos- Beer is dated back to 7 millenia BC, and may even predate bread. Wine is quite old too- 5000 to 6000 BC, so that's also probable. But getting high concentrations of alcohol requires distillation- once the alcohol level gets to a certain point, it poisons the organism converting the grain or fruit into alcohol. Natural fermentation can only get you so far. After that you need to use chemical means- distillation- to concentrate the alcohol further. Wikipedia pegs the invention of distillation at 800AD, which makes it too late to have come to Abydos from Earth. It could have been invented independently, of course, but on Earth it was invented by an alchemist, not a brewer, and the suppression of writing and technology on Abydos makes it somewhat less likely to be native in origin.

[redbyrd-sgfic.livejournal.com]

As for Teal'c, I think that's an obvious extrapolation of the symbiote's abilities. The symbiote can neutralize drugs and poisons (can't remember what ep that's from), so it makes sense that it can also neutralize alcohol. And I think it's fanon that the symbiote objects to alcohol, but remember that Selmak didn't like coffee. We don't know if that was a matter of taste, or of caffeine content, though. Teal'c doesn't drink coffee (except in Urgo)- wasn't that in your earlier post?- so there is some slight suggestion there that the symbiote doesn't care to have its host ingesting either stimulants or depressants.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Of course it makes sense, but we don't know that's why Teal'c refrains - that's the fanon part!

Selmac doesn't like coffee? I missed that one. Was it in S6?

And yes, I mentioned that Urgo drove Teal'c to drink coffee in the "Urgo could affect their tastes but not their feelings" section. At least, I think it was there. It might have been in the "Daniel and coffee" section. However, as aurora_novarum points out, Teal'c is very passionate about Ben & Jerry's ice cream, so he obviously doesn't mind some kinds of food addiction!

[(Anonymous)]

I didn't mean it wasn't fanon. Just that the reason it's so prevalent is that it's an obvious explanation. It's not like there was an influential story early in the fandom and everyone adopted it (though there could have been for all I know). But given the canon portrayal of Teal'c's relationship with alcohol, it's perfectly possible for lots of people to have independently arrived at the same conclusion.

And Selmac doesn't like coffee- it's in S7 Death Knell, Sam and Jacob are talking in the lab on the Alpha Site just before the Anubis drones attack. We don't know if it's the taste or the caffeine (or both) that she objects to.

RE: Urgo- I think you're correct that that it is the *only* time we see Teal'c with coffee. But we don't know canonically that he doesn't drink it- only that we've never seen it. Unlike the alcohol example, no one has ever said he doesn't drink it.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

I think it's interesting how much your list shows there's a lot of room for interpretation.

I was presuming Daniel was nursing his first/second beer while balancing an orange in "Lost City", but that's *my presumption*. There's no way to really tell. There are several beers around, but people drink at different rates.

I will admit, I do project my own alcohol experience onto Daniel. I will drink beer, I will occasionally order beer, but I don't particularly *like* beer. It's more for the social environment/what type of meal is served rather than preference for me. (Because usually, I'm with Carter--I like Diet Cola, hee hee).

One thing you didn't address is Daniel's tolerance vis a vis various alcohol, but I think that too is completely up to an author/reader. Just because an individual can be a "cheap date" on beer, they may have a high tolerance for more potent liquors or wine. I don't pretend to understand the dynamics of it, but I have experienced first and second hand the varying effects different types of alcohol can have on the human body.

I tend to think Daniel prefers wine to beer, and he's not a teetotaller, but it's neither here nor there. Daniel being a wine snob (or beer snob) like I see in fics sometimes doesn't seem to have canon basis, but then again, I'm projecting my own interpretation into canon as well.

Great job on the research, fig!

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I think most authors tend to project their own attitudes onto characters. It's part of "write what you know." But if we're really honest, it's not entirely fair, is it? :)

No one brought up that "tolerant of one kind of alcohol but not another" in the Q&A thread, I'm afraid! Didn't even know that. Are you suggesting that Daniel has no trouble with moonshine, but can get wasted on a beer or two? I've actually seen fanfics suggest that, come to think of it; but I had no idea it would actually be realistically true.

And I'll point out that any time we see Daniel drinking wine, it doesn't actually happen in our timeline/reality. So really, no basis for that.

Glad you're enjoying!

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

Are you suggesting that Daniel has no trouble with moonshine, but can get wasted on a beer or two? I've actually seen fanfics suggest that, come to think of it; but I had no idea it would actually be realistically true.

Yes, that's what I'm suggesting, but I've never done research to prove it. Just...blanking out on the term, but experiences or comments made by people who claim they can't handle beer, but drink wine and/or scotch, whiskey "harder liquor" just fine. What is that term?

I realize my previous comment makes me sound more wedded to the wine, and I'm not. I just read Daniel doesn't prefer the taste of beer in his comments/actions, but he's never said one way or another re: wine, so it may not be alcohol in general he waves off. But you've made an interesting argument that his statement of beer dislike may not be as hard and fast as fanon/canon accepts.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

BTW, was the second beer Daniel brought to the pier in Threads/Moebius for Daniel or for Sam? I'm going to have to look again, aren't I? LOL Oh, the torture. ;-)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Hmm, interesting question! True, there were two of them sitting there, and he brought out two beer bottles, so maybe they weren't for him at all...?

Except that - no. Just, no. I will not envision Teal'c and Daniel hauling that cooler over to the dock just so Daniel can obligingly serve his master and mistress with some beer. That's just... yuk. One was definitely for him, okay? :)

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

LOL. I wasn't implying THAT! Notice Teal'c and Daniel situated the cooler closer to themselves and THEIR chairs. He may have just been being nice and giving Jack and Sam the dregs of the cheap beer. ;-)

[green-grrl.livejournal.com]

I think you've hit the nail on the head, both with the chocolate and the alcohol!

Love the "misdirection" explanation for COTG. Combined with a long, long painful day? Yeah, a little naturally loopy and a lot not interested in digging into the pain. And good call on SoG, too -- conversation was definitely more the draw than beer. I definitely assume a few beers under Daniel's belt by the orange balancing scene in Lost City. If it was early enough to bring doughnuts, it was really early to be drinking! And Daniel's bigger by s7, working out with Teal'c, so he would definitely have more mass to absorb the alcohol. We have no idea how many he drank, but I'd say more than one or two -- Teal'c can drive, after all.

You've described the Daniel (and Jack and Teal'c) in my head! :-)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Teal'c can drive, after all.

Yeah, because Daniel taught him - in 1969. I have so much love for that bit of canon. :)

Interesting observation re doughnuts, and Daniel's increased mass - yes, it was probably too early for serious drinking (that doesn't seem to have stopped Jack, though, even before they showed up), and who knows how much Daniel had actually eaten?

Glad you like the analysis of CoTG and SoG! As for the chocolate - well, it technically is canon. Just not from the show. :)

[green-grrl.livejournal.com]

As for the chocolate - well, it technically is canon. Just not from the show. :)

Though now I don't remember how much they knew about where they were going before they moved out -- they kitted up for the desert, right? Chocolate bars in the desert are a MESS, unless you know it's winter. I cry product placement -- because a desert rat would bring M&Ms! ;-)

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

But with Teal'c, is there never NOT a time to bring donuts?

Mmmm...donuts. Sorry, offtopic. But now I'm feeling a hankering to bake. I've got some old cake mix in the pantry, maybe I'll make some cake mix cookies. Please, talk amongst yourselves. I'll bring virtual ones to share next time I weave through. :-)

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I missed this somehow. I'll have to comment when I feel better.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Hope you're feeling better soon, then!

Nice icon, BTW. I have no idea how to design icons, so most of mine are just screencaps. That one is just lovely for Teal'c and Daniel friendship recs... think I'll stick to what I've got, though. :)

[niamaea.livejournal.com]

Yay, more canonfanon posts! I love these -- and this time, I don't have a single thing to debate, you've got every base covered. (I don't drink either, so honestly, you could have told me there is evidence that Daniel's drinking apple juice and I've have no way to argue with you. ;-D)

I always catch these things a few days late, though, for some reason. I've been looking around - do you have a friending policy at all, or is it cool if I add you so I can get all the Breaking Canon News?

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

(I don't drink either, so honestly, you could have told me there is evidence that Daniel's drinking apple juice and I've have no way to argue with you. ;-D)

LOL. That's why I had that previous post, asking for advice, and I must say that everyone came through for me with tremendous grace.

As for friending? I didn't know there were policies involved. Go ahead and click if you'd like! I always enjoy it when people join the debates.

Oh, and love the icon! Go, Little Doc. :)

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

Actually, I'm going to jump in here and weigh in on the moonshine debate. The way i see it, there are several possibilities for Daniel and the moonshine.

1. The Abydonians already had knowledge of moonshine and Skaara recently came on board to try it himself. Jack just assumed that Daniel was corrupting him and that was said in jest. This is a possibility.

2. The Abydonians know nothing about moonshine and Daniel taught them what to do. Again, this is a viable possibilty. Daniel taught them a lot.

3. The Abydonians had prior knowledge of moonshine; Daniel provided knowledge of his own to assist them in bettering their methods. This I believe is a more distinct possibility. Now, that doesn't mean this is the best moonshine ever, but most ancient cultures would have knowledge on how to make alcoholisc beverages. The Egyptians drank it up. Now, maybe RA outlawed that as well, but the way people are...I see them giving up writing before alcohol. That being said, Daniel as shown in the series, has quite the knowledge when it comes to various cultures. He's gotten around, it's more likely than not that when he stayed with some groups of people while he was out in the field, he was exposed to their moonshine. For him to process that knowledge and then bring it along with him is not out of the questions.

So my interpretation of the moonshine scene is that Daniel probably did have a hand in teaching Skaara. But it's somethign Skaara would probably have gotten into at some point in his life anyway if he hadn't been tinkering already. Since he was portrayed as a boy, he probably just had not reached that stage as of yet.

As for the rest of your assessment, I think you bring up some valid points. But hey, why are you portraying me as the fanon nazi? ;) I think we are just having a difference in how we define fanon. I think taking canon and interpreting it is fine. How else would we write? I just don't like when canon is taken, reinterpreted, and then that fanon is then seen as truth. That just snowballs out of control.

My reading of Daniel and liquor goes as follows: Daniel isn't opposed to drinking. He has several times. He doesn't seem to actively seek it out either. He strikes me as a social drinker with a low tolerance level with Jack influencing him as time has gone by.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

So, Daniel corrupts his kid brother-in-law, is that it? :)

I wonder if I should edit the post to clarify: I personally do think that Daniel either introduced moonshine to the Abydonians or, as you brilliantly suggest, helped them refine the process. However, canon only presents us with three points: 1. Skaara offers some to Jack. 2. Jack asks Daniel, "What are you teaching these kids?" 3. Daniel grins at the accusation and doesn't refute or accept it. So the only canonical proof we have is that for Jack, distilled spirits on Abydos is new. His presumption that Daniel is responsible, whether real or in jest, is just that - a guess. So we don't really know from canon.

I don't know if I agree with you about how young Skaara is, though. He's certainly younger than Sha're, but I'd guess that he's in his upper teens; he's surely considered an adult by Abydonian standards, or why would he be part of the militia with the others?

But hey, why are you portraying me as the fanon nazi? ;)

Urk! Didn't mean to imply that! My apologies. I meant it as a sort of running joke, since you're a bit more fervent about it than I am, much as I tend to tease aurora_novarum regarding my dislike for seasons 8-9. I do agree with you, most definitely, about canon! It just seems to annoy you more than it does me. I'll drop the joke in the future.

He strikes me as a social drinker with a low tolerance level with Jack influencing him as time has gone by.

Okay, that struck me as funny. True, though, isn't it? I think it's one of the reasons I'm less fond of Daniel in the later seasons; he's been way too influenced by Jack and seems to channel him half the time. So if Jack influences his level of snark, why not influence his level of social drinking? Works for me! :)

[princessofg.livejournal.com]

lovely and thorough, as usual. and i am delighted to be able to use this in future stories, eps Jack's now well documented broader taste in alcohol.

the moonshine angle on Abydos prompted a ton of discussion, didn't it? Fascinating. I know zero about that, so it was fun to read.

And I was fairly certain Teal'c did not drink at all, and I'm happy to see that supported.

I want to suggest a tiny, tiny correction; more of a clarification. Jack is indeed drinking a shot of whiskey along with his beer in Upgrades at O'Malley's, but I would venture to say it is not Dewar's or indeed any kind of scotch whiskey. The traditional USA shot and beer combo would most likely include either Canadian whiskey, which for Jack would be very likely, I deem, or, if they were further south, bourbon whiskey.

and, as always, *cheers* :).

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Oh, I know zero about all of this, which is why I needed so much help! But yes, the moonshine discussion was fun. Didn't get anywhere, really, but fun nonetheless. :)

I will have to take your word for it regarding combinations of beer and whiskey, because I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about! The Dewar's thing in Upgrades was suggested by... I don't remember who in the original drinking post, since it's the same thing Kinsey swipes from Jack in Full Alert. If you say it's not done, then - ::shrugs::

and, as always, *cheers*

To quote Daniel at the end of F&W: "That's funny." ::insert quirky grin here:: ;)