Redial the Gate: Seth

[fignewton]

I don't know why this episode isn't more popular with the fandom. Does the discussion on children and connections make too many people feel like it is a Very Special Episode (tm)? Because this is full of snark and Daniel detective work and nice references to Egyptology and c'mon, it's got Jacob in it, and Jaffa jokes and "snippety doo dah" and Sam being awesome and Teal'c watching his team's six and Jack totally pwning the annoyed ATF guy and everything!

Even things blowing up, a bit.

So...? Why doesn't this ep inspire more squee?

Best defining Sam and Daniel moment ever:

Daniel: It's fascinating.

Sam: No kidding. A projected hologram with no silver halide coated plates, no photo polymer film, no -

Daniel: Actually, I was talking about what's being projected. It's like a family tree of the ancient Egyptian gods.

Now, c'mon, if that doesn't sum those two up, what does? :)

I think this is the only time in which Teal'c and Daniel tagteam each other. We're used to Daniel and Sam doing it in spades, and Jack and Daniel reacting in unison, but Teal'c and Daniel? So cute: Teal'c's dry flat statements, together with Daniel's elaboration on the scene. Whee!

LOVE the scene with Sam and Jacob and Selmac. Selmac surfaces and Sam is taken aback. Selmac tattles on Jacob, hee! And Jacob is all indignant. Such a fun look at what is still early days for this particular symbiotic relationship! And considering Jacob's behavior in Secrets... well, I suppose its a good thing he has the "oldest and wisest" Tok'ra smacking him up the inside of his head sometimes. :)

Daniel defying expectations is ALWAYS a favorite for me! So much for Jacob's needle in a haystack...

"Yadda" as short-hand between Jack and Daniel - a whole argument unspoken. Hee! Oh, I love those two.

Jaffa jokes! Oh, Teal'c. Do we ever hear him laugh like that again? Ever? I don't think so.

Anyone else amused that S3 Daniel was using Netscape as his web browser?

If they recognize that Seth might sense Junior, why don't they consider that Seth might also sense Jolinar's marker?

Jack calls Jacob "Dad" for the first time, hee! And other than a slight rolling of the eyes, Jacob ignores it. :)

I am also entertained at how Sam had Jack and Daniel wired for the electrical shock test, but didn't wire herself until after they'd run the test and proved it worked. Smart woman!

Loving one's children as uncomplicated in Jaffa society... bourne out by Teal'c's behavior with Ry'ac in Bloodlines and Family? Discuss.

Daniel in one of those robes and his new haircut really does look twelve. Don't you want to cuddle him?

How in the world did Daniel and Jack and Sam manage to fire multiple zats indiscriminately into a crowd of people, yet avoid accidentally killing anyone by zatting them twice?

On a purely aesthetic note, Sam looking up adoringly at Seth is almost as beautiful as Sam in The Serpent's Lair watching the Earth below her damaged death glider.

Y'know all those people who claim that Daniel doesn't know anything about guns? He doesn't seem to have any trouble working with the ones in Seth's throne room, does he?

"It won't be on you. It will be on me."

"It will reside on me also."

Oh, I love them! We needed more Teal'c and Jacob scenes together, but they're rarely paired in subsequent episodes.

I love Jack in full-snark mode, driving the ATF guy nuts. I love Jack and Daniel ducking underneath exploding rings. I love Seth thinking he can get out of the whole mess by covering his head with a stupid hood. I love Teal'c and Jacob working together, and I love Sam providing Jacob with back-up when they finally go see Mark.

So, a question for you all: how would you interpret Jack and Daniel's responses to Seth's death? "You killed him." "Hail Dorothy." Sarcasm? Alarm? Disgust? Awe? Respect? And how about Sam's reaction?

Comments

[kalquessa.livejournal.com]

Chris Judge has the most wonderful, infectious laugh ever. The end.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Hee! A whole episode recap in one sentence! :D

[princessofg.livejournal.com]

I love this episode, too, although the whole Jacob and Mark subplot is a little twee. Great Jack snark with the ATF; a real bright spot.

I have no idea why people don't like it; I'm as surprised as you are.

I took the Hail Dorothy as a real, spontaneous "good job" in a very Jacklike way. Not sarcasm, not alarm, not disgust, not really awe. Respect, relief, I guess... ?

I mean, the Wizard of Oz stuff is just a spinal reflex with Jack, I guess, so....

[sg-betty.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Good question. I suppose that I never really gave it the credit it deserves simply because it takes place on Earth. I admit to a certain prejudice against Earth based episodes.

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

Put me down as someone who loves Seth! I have the recap, and will endeavor to get it up sometime tonight, as it is, of course, sitting on my other hard drive...at home.

*sighs*

I think Jack's "Hail Dorothy" is way more complicated than any one of those reactions. I think it was "Oh, boy, she just killed someone kinda in cold blood but not really, and it was necessary, and not only that, but used the hand device to do it."

Or something.

[tringasolitaria.livejournal.com]

I just watched the episode not too long ago, and was surprised that I enjoyed it as much as I did. I think part of why people don't like it though is Seth himself. He's just really...sleezy. And yeah, it's also an Earth-based episode. I admit to not really being all that interested in those myself.

But it did have a lot of good parts that I'd forgotten. Such as, yes, Sam and Daniel's viewpoints on the hologram thingy and Teal'c's Jaffa jokes (I love this!!).

I also wondered how they managed to keep from killing anyone with the zat fire, and why their earpieces weren't removed by the cult followers. They didn't look to be that hard to spot.

Jack's reaction? It's hard to say. Yeah, maybe respect, but also maybe a tinge of "eew"? Sam I think was shocked and horrified.

[aelfgyfu_mead]

How in the world did Daniel and Jack and Sam manage to fire multiple zats indiscriminately into a crowd of people, yet avoid accidentally killing anyone by zatting them twice?
The ones who are zatted fall, avoiding being hit a second time!

This episode does have a lot of good bits, but I'm uncomfortable with the ending--perhaps I'm supposed to be, but I'm in no hurry to watch it again (certainly not when I've still only seen half of s6 and have most of Life on Mars yet to see at all!).

I think Jack and Daniel don't yet know how to react and are fumbling about for something to say, in very characteristic ways: stating the obvious and making light of it. That gives them time to decide among the reactions that you list, all of which cross at least one of their minds, I'm pretty sure. I think Sam is horrified. I feel so bad for her that, well, I don't want to see it again. Then, of course, they pick up in the next episode as if nothing had happened!

[sg-wonderland.livejournal.com]

Yays for:

Sam as Dorothy!

Jacob and 'Danny'

Daniel looking twelve in his jammies and new haircut.

Jack requesting an ATF jacket and getting those guys to do the grunt work.

Daniel finding the missing Goa'uld before the wormhole cooled down.

And last but not least, Jaffa jokes!! T's expression was hilarious.

[rdamel.livejournal.com]

I never liked Seth much, but never analyzed why, either. I do recall either reading, or maybe hearing on a dvd commentary, that Rob Cooper, I think it was, said something to the effect that "Seth is an episode that we pretend never happened", so the writers/producers did not like it, apparently.

Maybe I'll go watch my dvd of that one tonight.
Melissa

[annienau08.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank goodness! I was beginning to think I was the only person in fandom who actually enjoys this episode. I mean, it's certainly not their best effort, but it has a lot of moments that I love...and I'm pretty sure you mentioned all of them. :)

Also? Teal'c's joke is funny and it saddens me that the rest of SG-1's sense of humor is so limited.

[rdamel.livejournal.com]

I did rewatch it last night and only then realized it is season 3, so no commentary on the actual episode. I am just sure I probably heard, rather than read, one of them saying at some point that they (writers/producers) consider Seth to have "never happened", but I heard no comment as to why they were feeling that way about it. I also noticed it was written by Jonathon Glassner, which I'd forgotten.

It had some good moments, but rewatching it did not change my opinion--it's not one I normally care to rewatch. I had forgotten that this is the one where Jack calls Jacob "Dad".

Melissa M.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

the whole Jacob and Mark subplot is a little twee

As I said, the Very Special Episode (tm) might make people back off a bit. But there's so much more good stuff here!

I agree re Jack. Not sure about Daniel's reaction, though.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I will point out that 1969 is all Earth-based, too. :)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I think the Hail Dorothy is hugely complicated, yes, and would he be all that shocked at Sam killing a Goa'uld? Or was it the method that did it?

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I think part of why people don't like it though is Seth himself. He's just really...sleezy.

But he's a Goa'uld! He's supposed to be a creep! :)

Maybe the earpiece thingys looked like hearing aids?

maybe respect, but also maybe a tinge of "eew"?

::nods:: I'll take that one!

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

When you're firing six zats at once, victims might not fall down before getting a second fatal shot. I'm just saying.

Oh, I like that: not knowing how to react. Yes.

As for Sam, please run and don't walk to read Julie's amazing Peacemakers fic. It's linked by Redial's fanworks post.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Jacob and 'Danny'

Citation, please? I didn't hear any "Dannys" from Jacob this time. I don't think.

And yes, heh - those robes did look like jammies, didn't they?

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Replying to both comments here:

To the best of knowledge, the episode that the writers have been quoted as saying they'd like to pretend "never happened" is Hathor, not Seth. Understandable mix-up, though, as they're both newly-discovered Goa'uld who never made it off the planet.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

That icon with CJ laughing! Delightfully appropriate and utterly priceless. :)

It's not my favorite, I think, but oh, there is so much fun in this episode! Glad you enjoy it too.

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

Well, and there's the whole goa'uld/host line which isn't ever visited again after...well, it's BARELY visited with Osiris. Nevertheless, I think it's a factor here, along with the echos of Sam's own time as a host.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Interesting you should mention that. It's actually on my canon vs. fanon list: the premise that Daniel is always trying to stop people from killing Goa'uld, because the host is innocent.

In reality, we see Daniel worry about the hosts exactly thrice: Skaara in WtSG; Apophis' host in SS; and the hosts of the System Lords when he's asked to assassinate them in Summit. He backs away from killing Osiris because Garshaw's excuse for killing the hosts is that after thousands of years, they'll die anyway, and Sarah has only been a host for a year at that point.

So I don't agree that it's much of a factor here. Unless you want to go the fanfic route and suggest that Seth's lastest host was actually Melburn Jackson... :)

But Sam's own time as a host? Now that is a great twist, and one I never considered. Whew.

[sg-betty.livejournal.com]

Yep, and I'm one of an incredibly tiny minority that aren't big fans of that episode. Not that I hate it or anything, (it has some really nice moments). I reserve that for Hathor, Mobius and Unending. : )

[princessofg.livejournal.com]

i'll have to watch again specifically for daniel's reaction shot. i don't think i've ever noticed that in particular.

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

Hee! I don't think Seth's latest host was Melburn Jackson, no. But someone *does* mention that Seth could have taken more hosts over time. It might even have been Daniel, but I don't remember that clearly.

And, actually, I wasn't saying that Daniel always protests killing the host, just as I think it would be ridiculous to always consider the host--obviously, there's more at stake than one human's life--but it really OUGHT to have been brought up more than it was.

I think Sam, in particular, is very aware of the host/goa'uld line--possibly confused about what it means, but she OUGHT to know (and say) there is a difference. That consciousness gets shoved away for plot most of the time, and I'm mostly okay with that, but it does make some interesting holes in character motivation. (It does the same thing for Daniel and Jack, too, as they both are betting on that line still being there for Sha're and Skaara--they are hoping to get them back.)

Oh! I think you could also say that, over time, there is a true blending of host/symbiote, and that there really *isn't* anything left of the host, except that we do see Apophis' host with his own memories/language/etc. You could probably still argue the point, and I'd accept that. It would make SG-1's acceptance of Ba'al a lot easier to understand, for one.

[sg-wonderland.livejournal.com]

I stand corrected, I just scanned the transcript and he didn't call him 'Danny'. Perhaps I was just dazzled by those jammies...

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Right with you on Unending. :)

Moebius just breaks my heart, but thankfully, Betacandy's awesome episode fix (one of the three fics I'll take with me to a desert island) more than makes up for it.

No comment on Hathor. :) At least Sam and Janet get be awesome!

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

it really OUGHT to have been brought up more than it was

I'm not disagreeing with that. Of course, there's rarely time to consider the matter deliberately; it came up in Summit/Last Stand because it was pre-meditated, and it came up in Serpent's Song because Apophis was slowly dying. When they're fighting for their lives, though? The fanon that Daniel would say, "No, Jack! Leave an enemy alive at our backs, because the host doesn't deserve to die!" is just plain ridiculous.

But I really love that insight into Sam dealing with the Goa'uld post-Jolinar. Especially coupled with her (to my mind, false) perception of the infant symbiotes as innocents. I'm going to have to think about that one for a while.

I would suggest that the intriguing notion that the host doesn't survive because the blending between host and symbiote is too tightly woven is a distinct possibility - for the Tok'ra. Jacob, in particular, seems to absorb Selmac's personality to the point where he's a lot less strait-laced and willing to see the other person's POV (think of him manipulating Sam in Secrets...). But the regular Goa'uld don't share so much, which is why Apophis' host was still at least partially himself.

I have no explanation for SG-1's acceptance of Ba'al in any shape or form or clone. Get out the brain bleach, thank you.

[sg-betty.livejournal.com]

An episode fix? I haven't read it. That's great! I'll have to find it. I just can't bear the awfulness of it for Daniel. Re: Hathor. Yes. Let's just focus very, very hard on Sam and Janet. : )

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Oh, are you in for a treat:

You Can't Always Get What You Want. Recced here.

And I'm with you on how cruel Moebius was to Daniel. My first ever fic touched on that. I mean, it's just... oh, Daniel.

[sg-betty.livejournal.com]

Whee! Thanks for the link! I'm looking forward to getting that bad Moebius taste out of my mouth.

[sg-betty.livejournal.com]

Whew! That's better! Loved Betacandy's excellent story. Got a little worried there when Sam was dreaming about Peter Pan, but it all came together in a very satisfying way! Did anyone ever pick up the open ending and do anything with it?

[aelfgyfu_mead]

When you're firing six zats at once, victims might not fall down before getting a second fatal shot. I'm just saying.
Here I am, trying to reconcile everything that happens in the ep, and there you go using logic!

I did read "Peacemakers," a while back, and I've just read it again. It broke my heart all over again.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Not to my knowledge, no. But it's a real delight, isn't it? :)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Didn't Kalquessa have a great line about that in one of her recaps? "DO NOT LOOK DIRECTLY AT THE LOGIC," or something to that effect?

Silly Fig. :)

(and yes, Peacemakers breaks your heart. But it does it so well!)

[sg-betty.livejournal.com]

It sure is! It made me really start thinking about the nature of time travel. And I want to know what was in the sky!

I just read 'Flying Fists, Crouching Archeologist' again while I was there. I found it before I joined LJ - and enjoyed it just as much on the second read, if not more. Her style is just immaculate. I'm guessing that she must have stopped writing SG-1 fic since there haven't been any new stories for a long time. I hope that's not the case!

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Last year, Betacandy planned to do an extensive rewrite of SG-1, starting from the first ep of S4 - getting rid of all the ship and the really bad plot holes. She did Small Victories, but it seems to have stalled from there.

Why not drop her a line and encourage her to continue? :)

[sg-betty.livejournal.com]

Now that's a fine idea! I think I'll do that right now. : )