Fic rec, and some meta

[fignewton]

In case you've missed it, night_spear1287 has been posting Brotherhood, the third novel in her Daniel of Abydos series.

If you haven't been following it, Nightspear's fantastic AU begins with Translations, which I talked about with some other Daniel recs, and continues with Diplomacy which I discussed in detail here. Brotherhood, the current story, runs roughly parallel to our S3, and has Daniel finally becoming an official member of SG-1.

The premise: Drs. Melburn and Claire Jackson opened the Stargate back in 1982; Captain O'Neill was a member of the team at the time. By the time the equivalent of CotG is over, Mel and Claire are dead, and their son Daniel - 15 by Tau'ri standards, but nearly an adult by Abydon years - is stuck on Earth until the Gate on Abydos is reopened. Nightspear does a stunning job of characterization, making this younger Daniel an integral part of the SGC without shoehorning a teenager into places where he doesn't belong. The Jack and Daniel friendship is stellar, and the Sam and Daniel friendship is warm, but the Teal'c and Daniel friendship will absolutely take your breath away. My adoration for this AU may be a tad excessive :) but I assure you, it isn't misplaced!

Personal favorite bits: when an adult Dr. Daniel Jackson comes through the quantum mirror in this world's version of TBFTGOG; the combination of Secrets and Thor's Chariot; the entire Fifth Race section, which is somehow better than the show's; Daniel and Teal'c talking in the aftermath of Serpent's Song; the entertaining beginning to Brotherhood, which I won't detail and spoil you, but you'll figure out pretty quickly yourself; the twists and turns of Seth, where Daniel is the same age as most of the other brainwashed teenagers; and most recently, Nightspear's superb descent into poor Daniel's mind as he suffers from Machello's booby trap in Legacy, and the excellent chapter that deals with the repercussions. Teal'c grounding Daniel with his sheer calm presence is nothing short of awesome.

And that leads to the meta, because Nightspear always includes a sentence or two from the upcoming chapter, and I suddenly realized, for the first time, that Learning Curve comes right after Legacy.

How in the world did Daniel face the idea of children literally losing their minds so calmly, in the face of what he'd just undergone himself? How much of Jack's fury at what was happening (and Teal'c's distress, too) hinge on the horror of watching a brilliant mind disintegrate again?

I don't want to even begin to take away from the episode-contained moral dilemmas (we discussed those back when redial_the_gate did Learning Curve, and I very much enjoyed reading all the comments again). But I do think the sequence of episodes lends even greater impact to the tragedy of Orban, and I'd love to see additional meta (or fic, heh) that addresses it.

"Anyway, I'm sorry, but that just happens to be how I feel about it. What do you think?"

Comments

[samantilles.livejournal.com]

Learning Curve comes right after Legacy.
I never even thought of that. To be honest, whenever I watched the episode, I couldn't help but think that they finally gave Daniel a nice "get away from everyone else in the SGC who betrayed him" assignment on Orban. It looked like he'd been there a while and not returning to the SGC everyday. but I never did think of the basis of the story, just the opening sequence.
Huh...
(I might come back and comment again after thinking about this rather than doing actual work...)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Yes, that was my reaction too - Whoa! Never thought of that! ...and now I want to think about it. :)

Much as we love to talk about it in fanfic, I very much doubt Jack or George could rearrange missions to make things easier for this or that team member when they've had a rough time. But I love the beginning of Learning Curve with Daniel's smudged face and his total happiness in being utterly in his element, yes. As you say, isn't it a nice change after Legacy...? Until it suddenly isn't.

[samantilles.livejournal.com]

I can imagine the headache George would be getting as he tried to accomodate every SG member who had a broken leg (like finding a stargate pedistal without stairs (just a ramp) or who was suffering PMS (sending them to Goa'uld homeworlds for some behind-kicking) but it also seemed that at the beginning of Learning Curve that it wasn't a normal SG-1 mission, but rather the beginnings of a long term assignment (i'm thinking closer to "The First Ones" where Daniel goes off for an extended period of time without all of his teammates)

And legacy left us with such big holes at the end--we didn't see any of the fallout at all from what occured (as much as fanfic writers love to write legacy tags)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Never mind the fallout - what about all the plotholes? :)

Seriously, check out Nightspear's story. It takes two weeks before they exhaust all the other possibilities and hospitalize Daniel.

[samantilles.livejournal.com]

I'll be the first to admit that Legacy (and the lack of a good outcome) was what got me into reading stargate fanfic (any fanfic actually--never did in any of my previous fandoms!) in the first place (and I've never looked back!)

and I read just about anything you rec--I would have never started down nightspear's story on my own because I'm not the biggest fan into AUs, but I did peek ahead earlier and find the legacy portions...

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

The thing that always makes me hesitate with AUs is the question of characterization. I have no interest in "elseworlds," where Daniel is, say, a helicopter pilot and Sam is his mechanic and Teal'c runs the business and Jack is their regular customer. I just made that up. If such a fic exists, I don't want to know. :) But Nightspear's fic has such superb characterization - despite that single difference, that Daniel begins his contact with the SGC as a 15-year-old, everyone - including Daniel, are marvelously themselves.

Thank you for your compliment on my recs! But if you're going to choose one, this would be it. This series has definitely become my "make everyone sit down and read it" fic. :)

[samantilles.livejournal.com]

the "elseworlds" are precisely what I don't touch--its really rare at all I've even opened one, let alone read through it. In general if the term AU is in the title, I'm skeptical. When they say "totally an AU", well... yeah. But you're right, characterization is key-it really makes or breaks a story for me.

[sg-betty.livejournal.com]

I think you'd like this one, Sam. You know me and canon, and I find it just dandy. I don't find most AU's believable, and they seem (often) to exist only to allow more blatant 'ship, or some kind of 'unusual' characterization. This one is very believable and well done. It's more of an exploration into characterization 'what if' than wish-fulfillment.

[randomfreshink.livejournal.com]

The thing is, I don't think I would or could compare the knowledge dump from the chosen children of Orban with someone losing their mind. They lose knowledge/learning (it's proven later they can relearn, but it's just that no one's taught them that). They don't end up halucinating and insane. And it is their choice to do this -- Daniel always argues on the side of self-determination and individual choice, and if that's the way these folks need to protect their world. He might not like the choices on Orban, but he's not going to be one to aruge either that they should leave a population exposed to the Goa'uld.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

But they also lose their personalities, their sense of self, their life's experiences. Everything that makes them who they are.

I agree that it's not an exact parallel, but the realization that one ep follows directly after the other has definitely given me pause.

[randomfreshink.livejournal.com]

That's where this gets into what does make a personality -- for that, I fall on the side that there are core traits that come out not due to expereience, but to a core personality. My experience has been that you are who you are, even if you forget most of what you know (knowledge shapes the personality, but doesn't make it).

And to me it's key that Merrin is shown before the transformation learning about art (about drawing), and that's what she's doing even afterwords (drawing).

Machello's bugs left you with memories, but bent and distorted them -- to me, that's a far worse hell (I'd rather lose stuff and keep the core, and not have it all screwed with).

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

The question is, though, how much the core can grow to become something. Anything.

I agree that the two situations have very basic differences. OTOH, they do share one very stark similarity: watching a brilliant mind distorted and warped and disappearing, whether it's under a cloud of drugs and dopamine levels or by being vacuumed out for the benefit of others.

[princessofg.livejournal.com]

thanks for the reminder.

*bookmarks*

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Oh, you've got a treat ahead of you. :)

[sg-betty.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... I never thought of it as being the same. It's kind of like the difference between being insane and mentally retarded, except that the kids aren't retarded-they can still learn and have the same potential that they had before. They just have to relearn it here in a slower way. For me the tragedy wasn't that they lost their knowledge, it was that previous generations hadn't been taught when they could have had wonderful lives.
It was a false sort of knowledge, too--not really learned by doing, and unbalanced. At the end the kids have the ability to really be children and to learn in a way that will make them happier.
(I, too, adore Daniel's archeology happiness!)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Well, no, it's not the same. There are similarities, though, particularly the idea of losing one's sense of self. I agree that it's not an exact comparison - but the idea of warping the mind, with one ep following on the heels of the other, makes me frustrated that the writers so often forget about giving us repercussions.

I'll point out that you're writing about the Urrone children's future from the perspective of what changed by the end of the ep, not what was when SG-1 first discovered what the Averium really meant. Until Merrin learned "play" from Jack, post-Averium children were stripped entirely of personality and left with nothing - there was not even the faintest suggestion that they would be retaught afterwards. (Remember, they didn't even know what "teach" meant!)

I'm unsure how false the knowledge could be. It sounds like one of those old sci-fi tropes doesn't it? The pill you can swallow, and have the equivalent of a doctorate's worth of knowledge by morning.

[sg-betty.livejournal.com]

Well, that's true, about looking at it from the future prospective. Daniel is pretty horrified when he discovers what's happened to them. Still, I'm not sure if he would see similarities as they aren't tormented by , well, insanity.
It is kind of like a trope, but they do learn it, as much as learning in the absence of context can be considered learning. They learn, but they don't think.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if he would see similarities as they aren't tormented by , well, insanity.

You may be right, of course. But I'm not focusing on the sanity issue as much as the loss of control, the loss of self. It might only be a question of degree, and in the final analysis, it's just a question of me being struck by what I personally see as the similarities here. Either way, it makes for an interesting discussion, and that's always a good thing. :)

[sg-betty.livejournal.com]

Absolutely! I would never have thought about it if you hadn't brought it up, and it is something to think about. I tend not to look at the order of episodes and consider the ramifications, but to see each episode as a self-contained entity--except two parters, of course. Looking at it from the point of continuity is interesting. And I get most of my stories from this type of discussion. :)

[night-spear1287.livejournal.com]

As people have commented above, it's certainly not the same thing at all. You could make a case that traumatic situations on the heels of another trauma would compound issues, no matter how similar, but I do think the main issue Jack had was that Merrin (and the other Urrone) were brainwashed children who were told it was their duty and their honor to sacrifice themselves (mentally if not physically) for society. Depending on how closely it followed on the heels of "Legacy," and depending on how unhappy/resentful/etc. SG-1 were about the happenings therein, that could, of course, exacerbate the overall unhappiness about Orban.

And I do think there is a connection, if not a 1:1 correlation. We don't actually know how badly Machello's Legacy bugs would have messed with a person's brain, but it seems to leave the person rather incapacitated, at best. And it seems to me that, if the Urrone were really left with their full, infant-like potential, they could all simply be left with a few nanites so they wouldn't lose everything. Merrin states that the nanites have to be implanted in an infant before neural pathways are established. Sam says that this creates extra neural pathways, but it seems to me that it would take the *place* of ones that would normally form as well, leaving kids with underdeveloped brains post-Averium. While brain plasticity is a wonderful and amazing thing, I'd assume that an 11-y.o. whose brain existed in an infant-like state might not have the full developmental potential of an infant (I'm not a neuroscientist, so I could be wrong there).

Whoo. I think I had a point in there...something along the lines of: there are enough differences--and the issue seems to be children as much as or more than messing-up-brains--that I don't think the writers specifically intended Learning Curve to be a follow-up to Legacy, per se. However, SG-1 might have plausibly drawn some connections, especially if both incidents were weighing on their minds.

(And as always, thanks for the rec!)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Yes, pretty much everyone disagrees with me here. :)

I will readily concede that no, it's not the same at all. Yet there is the parallel of someone losing their identity and personality, no matter what the underlying cause. And that, I think, is what would have shaken the team.

I do know that people who suffer from devastating strokes might need to start all over again. That might be similar to what the Urrone children experience. Maybe.

I agree that to Jack, at least, the issue is more about children protect the children then their minds, specifically. Which, of course, will make your own version so much more angsty... :)

And the rec is a pleasure, trust me!

[night-spear1287.livejournal.com]

I definitely do see the parallel, don't get me wrong. And if it's not 100% the same situation, if Jack (or anyone) is going to be upset by some connection his mind has drawn for him, I can't see him stopping to check to make sure it's completely 100% logical first :)

Cheers!

[cleothemuse.livejournal.com]

I'm definitely looking forward to the next installment. After the experience Daniel just had, seeing the Orbanian children becoming "mindless" is going to completely knock the rest of the team for a loop. Deja vu all over again, eh?

BTW, I think it's HILARIOUS we both found this series at around the same time... and completely independent of one another! I started following it on FFnet, but gave up haunting the Pit for installments once I discovered Nightspear had an LJ.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

::nods:: It was definitely Nightspear's fic that inspired this! Clearly, it is ALL HER FAULT. :)

[kalquessa.livejournal.com]

Huh, I totally failed to notice the fact that those two eps were neighbors. And noticing would have made me look all smart and thinky in my recap. When mostly I just flailed and was incoherent about the little kids. Oh well.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

But your recap was LOVE! I reread it this afternooon when I went back to reread the comments on my own LC meta, because I was intelligent enough to include a link. And I loved it. :)

[sg-wonderland.livejournal.com]

May I just add my own voice to those urging a perusal of night_spear1287's excellent AU series? Like most fans, I usually turn my nose up at AU because my dear ones are unrecognizable. Not so here, the team is our team in all their teamy glory. Go, read, enjoy!
I do think Jack's horror in Learning Curve had to at least be colored a bit by what happened to Daniel. After all, Daniel's main worth to the SGC was his fine brain, his ability to think, to puzzle, to figure his way out of just about anything that was thrown at him. And to see him lose that, lose both his value to the SGC and his own self-worth, has to be horrifying especially if you have a front-row seat.
I think I did a Learning Curve fic..a million years ago...

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

the team is our team in all their teamy glory

Hee! Yes, that's it exactly. Everyone is so delightfully themselves. Not to mention a great Robert Rothman and a magnificent Hammond and a lovely Janet...

Go find your LC fic, and link to it over at Redial's fanworks. :)

[sg-wonderland.livejournal.com]

I love this Rothman, who is somewhat bemused by the alien child with the big brain!
As for the LC fic, it was a very early one and is probably quite rough...

[kazbaby]

Okay, you've convinced me to read this story. Definitely sounds like I'll enjoy it.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Excellent! Trust me, you'll be enthralled. :)