Canon vs. Fanon, part 9: "It's just a deep, bleeding gash..."

[fignewton]

I'd originally planned to do Daniel's pre-series history next, but this particular topic has come up over and over again in the comments sections of previous posts, so we're going to tackle this one first.

"It's just a deep, bleeding gash, but it'll be fine."

A common aspect of fanfic – particularly Daniel-whumping ones! – is Daniel's supposed stoicism, where even the worst wounds and injuries are dismissed with the words, "I'm fine." Now, it's certainly true that Daniel makes an effort to understate his condition at times; all the members of SG-1 do it to some degree, and I'll give some examples of that. But fanon has taken that idea and run away with it, warping it to the point where Daniel will always insist – despite suffering from... oh, let's say a punctured lung, three broken fingers, and a compound fracture of the thigh – that he's fine.

So how often does canon Daniel say, "I'm fine," and how often does he actually mean it?

Brief recap: Canon is defined as anything directly shown during Stargate: The Movie or episodes of the show, with show superseding the movie when there's a contradiction. (Jack's son was named Charlie, not Tyler.) Fanon is defined as widely-accepted concepts that appear in fanfic, but do not have any real basis in canon.

If I've missed any canon appearances which support or contradict my analysis, I would greatly appreciate it if you'd point that out in the comments. I haven't included times that Daniel says that he's fine when he actually is healthy – for example, when he recovers in One False Step, or in Abyss, when he reassures Jack in the closing scene – or when he truly believes he's healthy, like in Tin Man or Urgo before the truth is revealed.

Daniel always insists that he's fine, even when he isn't.

Like most fanon tropes, this one does have solid canon basis… Just not as much as a person might think, if they used fanfic as their source instead of the show. Let's list those canon sources and see how they add up.

COTG. Daniel wakes up in the dungeon, after being unconsious for several hours (possibly as many as sixteen or seventeen!). Skaara embraces him and says, "You're okay?" Daniel answers, "I think so," but as Skaara tightens his grip, Daniel coughs and needs to sit down.

Need. When they return from the planet and are being checked in the infirmary, a restless, agitated Daniel swings his legs on a bed and complains, "This is stupid!"

Sam, trying to calm him down, tells him, "Doctor Frasier says your systems are all out of whack."

Daniel snaps, "Well, I feel fine!"

A short time later, after a rather ugly scene in Sam's lab, he tries to resign from the SGC and collapses on Hammond's office floor.

Holiday. Included for the sake of completion. Daniel insists, over and over, that he's fine. Unfortunately, it's Machello who's doing all the talking, not Daniel.

Into the Fire. When Makepeace leads the S&R team to get SG-1 out of Hathor's clutches, Daniel goes down with a piece of shrapnel in the leg during the firefight at the Stargate. When the initial mad scramble has ended, and they're making their way through the Tok'ra tunnels, Makepeace turns to Daniel and asks, "How's the leg? Can you walk?"

Daniel answers with deadpan sarcasm, "It's just a deep, bleeding gash, but it'll be fine."

This one is a classic case, and my personal theory is that most of the "I'm fine" fanon sprang from this quote. I don't have any proof of that, of course, since I didn't even discover Stargate until the summer of 2005. If I'm right, then it's doubly ironic, considering that Daniel was a lot more sarcastic than he was sincere.

Legacy. In the scene in the VIP room, just before Daniel is committed to Mental Health, Daniel insists he's "fine" twice – once when he means it, and once when he doesn't:

During their games of chess, Daniel realizes that he could have checkmated Jack two moves earlier, and comments, "I don’t know what I was thinking."

"Yeah, well, you're a little off," Jack tells him dryly.

In all sincerity, Daniel says, "I don't feel off. I feel – I feel fine. No headaches, no tension… I mean, I feel normal."

They stop playing chess and switch to gin; and suddenly Daniel isn't all that fine any more, as he hears chevrons locking in the cabinet. He takes out the cards, determined to continue as if everything is normal – but as he pulls out the scorepad, and Jack starts cutting the deck of cards, he sees a symbiote crawling up Jack's arm.

Now Daniel is trying not to panic and says, very carefully, "Jack?"

Jack, of course, doesn't know what Daniel thinks he sees, and only answers casually, "Yeah, what?"

Daniel realizes that this, too, must be a hallucination, and tries to dismiss it as, "It's nothing." Only it isn't nothing, not to Daniel, as he watches the symbiote crawl towards Jack's neck.

Jack sees his tension and asks, "You all right?"

And here Daniel is obviously lying as he says, "I'm fine… How are you?" Seconds later, as he "sees" Jack's eyes flash, he can no longer ignore the hallucination – don't forget, it's not that long since he really saw Jack overtaken by a Goa'uld – and he throws himself at Jack, trying to get the symbiote out of his neck before it's too late.

Forever in a Day. Oddly enough, it's Teal'c who pronounces, "Daniel Jackson will be fine." Either he is assuring Jack and Sam that he killed Ammonet before she could zap him fatally, or he is referring to Daniel's forgiveness, which would serve as a clear indication that Daniel will be able to persevere even in the face of his personal tragedy..

Shades of Grey. This one is extremely subjective, so I'm including it only for the sake of completion. When Jack tries to apologize to Daniel for the "no foundation" thing in the final scene of the episode, Daniel shrugs it off as unimportant, with no need to discuss it. Depending on how you interpret Daniel's reactions in that episode – and hoo boy, are there lots of different interpretations out there! – this may qualify as pretending to be fine when he isn't, or it may be that Daniel was actually not distressed by the incident.

Maternal Instinct. Another subjective one. When Oma Desala disappears with (the then unnamed) Shifu, Jack asks Daniel, "You all right?"

Daniel answers, "Yeah." The sincerity of that reply is open to interpretation; include it or not, according to your own opinion of the scene.

Nemesis. Here are classic quotes numbers two and three. Jack walks into the infirmary, where Daniel is recovering from the operation to have his appendix removed. Jack remarks that Janet has said that it will take about a week before Daniel can be released.

Daniel says, "You know, it's funny. After all we've been though these last… few years, it's my appendix that lays me out. But it's not going to be a week. I mean, I feel fine now."

Jack cheerfully takes his word for it and suggests, "You wanna go fishing?"

Daniel actually tries to sit up. "Actually, I wouldn't, uh…" He realizes that he's not quite as "fine" as he claimed to be, but gamely continues. "Well, maybe…" Nope. Not going anywhere. He settles back on the pillow, still wincing, and finishes, "No, you know, I think – I think I will stay here for two or three…" Another wince. "Three days."

Since there is no practical reason whatsoever for Daniel's little attempt at stoicism here, I will cheerfully put this down in the "stupid macho idiot" category and leave it at that. (More on this below.) Because yes, my Daniel Jackson is, on occasion, a stupid male. And I love him despite it. :)

Later, General Hammond finds Daniel sitting in the control room, obviously in pain. He asks, "Doctor Jackson, are you okay?"

Daniel is clearly lying when he answers, "I'm fine."

Hammond gently suggests that he rest in the infirmary, but Daniel only says, "Sir, I know there's no reason for me to be here, but I just… I feel like I should be here. That's not totally true. Actually, I feel like I should be up there with them."

This one really is the ultimate classic "I'm fine," because this is how fanon uses it most often: Daniel dismissing his own injuries in order to either maintain vigil over his teammates or do something to help them.

The Curse. Another classic moment. Daniel has been choked, thrown about, and severely ribboned. When he stabs Osiris with the tranquilizer dart and is released from the ribbon device, he's not capable of doing much more than curling up on the floor, alternating between pushing his palms against his temples – possibly to keep his head from falling off – and pounding on the floor in agony. When Osiris is ringed up to her ship, Janet rushes to check on Rayner while Sam comes to check on Daniel.

Sam asks, "Are you all right?"

Daniel's gasping answer is, "Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think I'm getting used to that thing."

This is so obviously a lie that Sam doesn't even bother to call him on it. On the other hand, this is also so obviously sarcastic that he doesn't need to be called on it.

The Light. The word "fine" gets put to a lot of use in this one. In the initial briefing, Daniel insists, over and over, that Barber was "fine." Later that night, when he is already beginning to succumb to withdrawal from the Light, he goes to Hammond to demand an immediate return.

Hammond surveys him and asks, "Have you slept at all since you returned?"

Daniel's reply is huffy, and Hammond warns him, "I'm not sending you anywhere until you've all had a night's sleep."

Daniel retorts, "I'm fine!"

He's not, of course. The conversation wends its way to its ugly conclusion, and the next time we see Daniel, he's ready to jump off his eighth floor balcony.

Summit. This is the first time we see Daniel claiming to be "fine" in an emotional crisis, rather than a physical one. He and Jacob are traveling to the Goa'uld summit. Jacob asks him if he's sure he can identify each of the System Lords, and Daniel tells him, "Oh, yeah, I'm fine."

After another moment, Jacob looks at Daniel more carefully and asks, "Are you all right, Daniel?"

Daniel says again, "Oh, yeah, I'm fine."

Jacob clearly isn't convinced, because he finds it necessary to warn Daniel that they can't go ahead with the mission if Daniel isn't wholly committed to the assassination. (It's a bit sad, I suppose, that Jacob seemed to recognize how out-of-character such an extreme action was for Daniel, and SG-1 didn't. Teal'c did go to talk to Daniel before they left, at least, but he seemed more in favor of the idea than against it.)

Evolution, part 2. Another subjective one. Jack and Daniel are in the Gate room to greet Teal'c, Bra'tac, Jacob, and Sam as they return. Sam looks at Daniel on his crutches and asks, "Daniel?"

"I'm fine," Daniel replies. I personally think he was being relatively honest in this case, but others might disagree. Don't forget that we have no way of knowing how much time has passed since the rescue.

Chimera. When bad-sport Osiris realizes that she's not going to get what she came for, she ribbons Daniel – the painful kind, not the put-to-sleep kind. It takes several seconds before Jack stops her, mostly by making himself into a target instead. Teal'c checks on Jack, who waves him towards Daniel. (Two for the price of one in this scene, you will note!)

Teal'c demands of Daniel, who is cringing as he pulls out the memory device and clearly in pain, "Will you be all right?"

Daniel mutters, "Yeah, go, go, go, go." As Teal'c obeys and disappears from the screen, we see Daniel is still shaking.

Canon incidents when Daniel doesn't say he's fine.

So, we've seen that there are plenty of occasions in canon when Daniel insists that he's fine. Fanon would suggest that he always does this, no matter what. But there are also plenty of canon incidents when Daniel does not say he's fine. Let's take a look at those.

COTG. When Jack and Teal'c kill the other serpent guards and break the walls of the dungeon, Daniel helps Jack shepherd the other prisoners out. As the last refugee scurries outside, Jack looks at Daniel and asks, "You're gonna be okay?" Daniel's expression, as he wordlessly looks at Jack, very clearly answers that he's not okay at all.

The Serpent's Lair. "I'm dead anyway! …Go, just go! I'll stay and watch your back." 'Nuff said.

In the Line of Duty. Daniel is the first human being on SG-1 to have the pleasure of being zatted!

Teal'c: "Are you injured?"

Daniel (gasping, eyes bugging out): "Dumb question!"

The Gamekeeper. When Daniel refuses "to play" and Teal'c and Jack are brought into their scenario, Jack asks, "You guys all right?"

Daniel says, "I'm not really sure, to tell you the truth."

Secrets. Daniel is shattered by the events on Abydos and the birth of Sha're's child. After Apophis and Ammonet leave, and SG-1 dials home, Jack asks Daniel, "Are you all right?"

"No. No, I'm not," Daniel answers. "But I will be."

Forever in a Day. This one is a little tricky to unravel, but… In the vision, when Daniel wakes up for the third time in the infirmary, after the second time when Sha're seemed to be there and then was swallowed into the wall (is that clear?), Janet turns him to say and asks anxiously, "Daniel, are you okay?"

Daniel says, rather flatly,  "No," before asking, without much hope, if Sha're is there.

Later in the vision, he awakens to discover Sha're in bed beside him. Sha're asks solictiously, "Are you ill, my husband?" Daniel blinks in surprise and says, "Apparently."

Now, as I have often stated, these events are not real. They are, however, reflective of Daniel's behavior, both as he envisions himself and as Sha're envisions him; so while they aren't canon, they are indicative of Daniel's canon reactions.

The Devil You Know. Since the validity of this scene was discussed in the comments of a previous post, I'll preface this by explaining why I accept the visions induced by the Blood of Sokar as canon, with a certain caveat.

None of the visions were scenes that we've seen before, but since they're being induced in conjunction with the memory device, they must be real memories. The only difference is that the Blood of Sokar is warping those memories, as Apophis attempts to force information out of the victims. The warping of the memories is indicated by the phlanging echo of the dialogue, which tells us that the vision is twisting the memory of what really happened to suit Apophis' needs. So yes, Sam and Jacob did have that discussion after her mother died; and Charlie and Jack did have words about a toy gun; and Daniel and Jack did discuss Jack's initial reluctance to believe Daniel's assertion about Sha're's communication through the ribbon device.

So, with the understanding that Daniel's memory is canonical until the Blood of Sokar twists it into "Jack" asking Daniel to name Kheb, we do have a canon scene of Jack telling Daniel, "I just wanted to see how you're doing."

Daniel answers, almost automatically, "Good." Then, after a pause, qualifies that: "…Okay."

New Ground. After Daniel is dragged outside to be confronted by the dead guard and the unburied DHD – and, it is implied, some lengthly private "interrogation" of his own – Sam and Jack are brought into the other tent, where he is once more caged. As Sam settles into her own cage and is locked inside, she looks at him and asks, "Daniel, you okay?" Daniel glances at her, then looks away wordlessly. Clearly, he isn't.

Small Victories. While Daniel remained stoical during Nemesis when he could at least keep vigil, he isn't pretending any more here. When Janet probes the site of his operation, Daniel is clearly wincing. And when she tells him, "You were very lucky," Daniel only says, "That's what they keep saying." It seems clear that he doesn't much believe it himself.

Upgrades. When Daniel collapses after expending his last strength on the naquadah block, Sam and Jack rush over to him. "What's going on?" Sam asks.

"I can't move," Daniel mumbles, and passes out.

I'm including this because there's at least one fic out there that has Daniel, on the verge of collapse, telling Jack on the radio, "I think I broke something, but I'm fi-" and then passes out mid-word. It's hilariously funny, to be honest, but so unquestionably fanon.

Menace. In the scene that was, to me, the ugliest of the episode, Janet is busy putting stiches in Daniel's scalp while SG-1 discusses Reece. When Jack caustically suggests that they "ask the man who just had his head cracked open," Daniel does not say, "I'm fine," despite his apparent desire to go easy on Reece; instead, he only says, "I don't think she meant to hurt me."

Meridian. Calmly, coolly, and clinically, Daniel lists the symptoms of his impending death. There is no pretense that everything will be "fine."

Lockdown. Daniel appears in Jack's office, and Jack grumbles at him, "You're not supposed to be walking around."

"It's my arm," Daniel tells him briskly. He sits down and winces, clearly exaggerating just a tad.

"You were shot!" Jack protests.

Instead of dismissing it, Daniel says calmly. "I know. You shot me." (I really adore them in that scene, I do. Especially Jack's indignant, "Not the point!")

Icon. Daniel gets to his feet for one of the first times during his recovery from his wounds. Leda comes into the bedroom and protests, "You shouldn't be standing."

Daniel wryly assures her, "Oh, don't let appearances fool you. I still feel terrible."

Prometheus Unbound. Daniel is anything but stoical when Vala shoots him in the shoulder.

Full Alert. Daniel is taken into custody and has a blood sample taken. Very pointedly, Daniel says, "Ow!" when the blood is drawn. (Incidentally, since when can you tell if someone is Goa'ulded by a blood test? Must save a lot of wear and tear on MRIs.)

Analyzing the "I'm fine"s and determining why Daniel says it.

While the word "fine" becomes increasingly funny-looking after a while of trawling transcripts, it's an astonishingly common quote on SG-1. Daniel isn't the only one; Sam, Jack, and Teal'c say it nearly as often as Daniel does. To give single examples for each of them: Jack insists he's fine in The Light, right after he explodes at Janet and right before they re-check his dopamine levels to discover that he's become addicted after a single hour on the planet. He has a hand clamped to his forehead at the time. Sam tells Teal'c that she's fine in Paradise Lost, right before she breaks down. A blinded Teal'c assures Nyan, without any real conviction, that he will be fine and recover. (Actually, my favorite "I am fine" from Teal'c is in Avatar, when he's playing the game and he tells virtual Sam and virtual Daniel that the game hasn't ended yet, because "None of you are real." They stare at him incredulously; he looks back at them, actually rolls his eyes a bit, and exasperatedly says, "I am fine.")

So why say it, then? I suggest we can slot "I'm fine," and variations thereof, into three possible categories:

1. The person is trying to avoid an emotional connection or active attention, either from a need to retreat emotionally or from a need to retain the status quo. Examples of this include Daniel's assertion that he's fine in Legacy, when he doesn't want to admit that he's hallucinating; Nemesis, when he desperately needs to keep vigil in the Gateroom; and Summit, where Daniel really isn't all that fine with what he's doing, and is anxious to avoid talking about it. If you want to include Shades of Grey and Maternal Instinct on your list, as enumerated above, they would fall into this category as well.

2. The person is being a macho idiot. No, seriously. :) It's a common fallacy that all too many males – and plenty of females – share: that it's somehow brave and noble to disclaim any pain and insist that you're healthy when you're not. Daniel's brave front at the beginning of Nemesis, when he's actually stupid enough to try and sit up just to show Jack how quickly he's going to recover, fits into this section quite nicely. His attempt to stand up straight in COTG when he first recovers consciousness isn't quite as pointed an example, but it also fits the pattern.

3. The person is actually being sarcastic, which means the more dismissive they are of the pain, the worse it actually is. Snarky Daniel is a delight, even if it's gotten a little too pointed over the years – as Daniel himself admits in Watergate, he's been spending way too much time with Jack O'Neill, and the attitude has to rub off at least a little. Daniel's reply to Makepeace in Into the Fire, and his gasping answer to Sam in The Curse, both fit into this category.

So what's left? There's Need and The Light, but he isn't really himself there. In fact, there's only one incident that neatly slots into the typical fanon trope of "I'm fine," and that's Chimera, where he ignores his own pain in order to send Teal'c to help Jack capture Osiris.

So we've got Chimera, where "I'm fine" is because of Daniel's desire to have his teammates working towards some purpose other than his own health; and Nemesis, where he dismisses his physical distress so that he can keep vigil on his teammates' wellbeing. Those are the two most common fanon explanations for Daniel's "I'm fine" assertions. There's a third, less common theme, in which Daniel claims that he's fine because he wants to avoid what he perceives as undue fuss or unnecessary treatment. Aside from making Daniel behave like a petulant child, that fanon has only Legacy to use as canon; and that Daniel was already affected by medication at the time, and was therefore not entirely himself.

Conclusion: While canon basis for Daniel to say "I'm fine" – even when he really isn't – does exist, there are only two instances when he says it for selfless or altruistic reasons. Furthermore, there are many occasions in canon when he does not say that he is fine. Therefore, the common fanon theme that Daniel always denies physical or emotional pain does not have any real basis in canon.

My personal fanon opinion? The "I'm fine" trope is one of those common fanon themes that I don't particularly mind; there's at least some basis for it in canon, and it fits Daniel's personality. On the other hand, like all fanon assertions, it is often exaggerated to such a degree that it becomes unrealistic and out of character. The wise author will consider the actual canon, rather than the more common fanon, and adjust Daniel's "I'm fine!" accordingly.

"Anyway, I'm sorry, but that just happens to be how I feel about it. What do you think?"

Comments

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

"Danny's got a splinter, please give him oxygen!"

But there's a huge difference between over-enthusiastic whumping, or even parodies thereof, and turning Daniel into a cringing baby who faints at the sight of needles.

I have never seen a fic where Daniel was actively frightened of going to the infirmary, except for a single fic in which he'd been infected by something that caused extreme paranoia and anxiety, and he was hiding from everything, not Janet or needles in particular.

I've changed my mind. I don't want links. I wouldn't be able to read it anyway. :)

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I figured there must be a fic out there that had some paranoia and anxiety in it. I think I'll steer clear of any until I'm done mine.

I've seen lots of fic where Daniel has been terrified to go to the infirmary. It's usually done in conjuction with some kind of alien influence or something like you mentioned above. And it almost always goes back to some traumatic childhood experience. Which, let me tell you, gets old fast.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

And it almost always goes back to some traumatic childhood experience. Which, let me tell you, gets old fast.

Daniel did have a traumatic childhood experience. He watched his parents die.

::grins, ducks, and runs::

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

Yeah, you'd better run.

But I know you know what I mean ;) I adore Daniel because of the tragedy in his life. He watched his parents die. He was basically abandoned by Nick. He lost Sha're. He lost Sarah. Poor guy *hugs*

But the trauma/abuse/foster care thing just drives me batty.

[shutthef-up.livejournal.com]

While I don't think it's *quite* canon, what I've heard/seen (and please don't ask me where - might have been Arduinna's fact site) is a sort of melding of movie and television canon.

In the movie IIRC, Catherine points out that Daniel's parents died in a plane crash rather later in life than the accident that killed TV Daniel's parents.

The melding says that it was Daniel's foster parents that were killed in a plane crash later. So the poor guy lost *two* sets of parents to tragic accidents, but it also tends to nullify the idea that Daniel was this poor waif that was abused/neglected/passed around foster homes.

Yes, I find the whole childhood abuse/trauma assumption very annoying. I don't understand why people want to assume that. I know initially it had to do with Daniel's tendency to cross his arms (cold arms), but I think that's reading a bit too much into a bit of body language.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I've never heard this interpretation. I just usually take show canon over movie canon. But did she really point out that his parents died in a plane crash? Now I can't remember! I know the movie novelization talks about his parents dying in a plane crash.

I know that for one of the fics I am writing, I'm doing my best to blend movie/novelization/show canon together and darn it is hard.

Ugh, this is bugging me now. I am so anal. *slips in movie*

I just watched the scene where Catherne meets up with Daniel and they don't mention his parents died. She pulls out the picture, and asks him if they were his parents. He says foster parents and she puts it away. Then they talk about the job and when he refuses she tells him he's been evicted from his apartment, his grants have run out, and that everything he owns is in his bags. So unless she mentions it elsewhere, the plan crash is not canon. It's from the novelization which was based on an earlier draft.

(Though, the pic she shows him has a very young young boy in it, way younger than the age Daniel would have been when his parents died in show canon.)

As for the childhood abuse, it just irks me. While the foster care system is not pleasant, there is no evidence that Daniel was abused in canon. And while there is no evidence that he hasn't been abused, imo, it doesn't suit his character.

And just because someone crosses their arms doesn't mean they've had a life filled with trauma. It's true Daniel has had a lot of tragedy, but still.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

(Though, the pic she shows him has a very young young boy in it, way younger than the age Daniel would have been when his parents died in show canon.)

I've seen the wank reconcile that by saying that the baby was a foster-brother/sister, not necessarily Daniel himself. It's never explicitly stated that the baby the couple is holding *is* Daniel.

I hadn't ever heard of a plane crash before either. I've never read the novel.

The standard canon accepted by fanon is tv-series, movie [if not contradicted by show], and for some people the novelization, right? That's why some people have this idea of where Daniel's supposed to have been educated?

As for where Daniel has had 52 foster families and been mentally/emotionally/physically/sexually abused as a child...I have NO idea where that comes from.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

As for where Daniel has had 52 foster families and been mentally/emotionally/physically/sexually abused as a child...I have NO idea where that comes from.

It's for huggles and cuddles! That's my reasoning. There has to be (a) some reason to whump Daniel and make him vunerable so that (b) Jack can hug him and kiss it better.

Plane crash is from an earlier draft of the movie. It didn't make the cut. It's why Daniel has a fear of flying/travel which developed into hodophobia. It's why he sneezes all the time.

Again, the explanation is not movie canon. Just that he gets allergies when he travels.

Also, the book does state where he received some of his education. I think. Or maybe it just said where he used to teach. But what you see in fanon? It doesn't even really add up in light of the book, either. I have the book in my room. I can always look it up.

And the wank you've noted, while not canon, is the one that I work with. That the kid in the pic is not Daniel.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

It's why Daniel has a fear of flying/travel which developed into hodophobia. It's why he sneezes all the time.

I read the novel just last week and didn't pick up on that nuance. Then again, I was on my way to a dentist appointment at the time. :)

There's a lot of characterization in the novel that I really disliked. Daniel, in particular, is much less likeable - not because of his arrogance (he still has that in spades in both the movie and the show!) but other characterizations.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I rather liked many of the things in the novel, though I think the movie version is a way better draft. My favorite part of the novel is how strong Sha'uri (sp?) is. Her characterization in the book is so great and builds on what was present in the movie. Sha're on the show just didn't cut it for me. I ended up using the book as a basis to write a missing scene for Sha're for COTG because I couldn't take it anymore.

I forget where the hodophobia remark came in the book. I know it's there because I used it in a Jack and Daniel friendship novella I wrote but I can't post online yet. I was tired of the whole "Daniel has bad alleries" in fanfic, so I used the hodophobia remark in the fic instead.

Ah...page 121. "He looked up at the lietenant with eyes puffy from a long night of hodophobia, commonly known as 'travel allergy,' and calmly blew his nose." That's why movie!Daniel and COTG Daniel sneezed when they traveled through the Stargate. I always fanwank it that Daniel grew out of his hodophobia to only then develop some allergies in extreme situations (certain planets, usually with LOTS of flowers--something I can relate to as someone with pollen allergies) but those went away over time as well as he grew stronger physically. (I try to use my personal brand of fanon to explain show inconsistancies in a common sense way. Heh.)

Though, it's funny who you say you disliked the Daniel in the novel. I find the Daniel in the novel much closer to the show Daniel than movie Daniel. We do know Daniel is arrogant, but I liked that the book also showed that he was sneaky and snarky. The movie Daniel wasn't quite as snarky.

But then again, I read the book just to find additional ways to flesh things out. The book isn't canon, but I do use it as a resource when I am interpreting canon so I can steer clear of using fanon.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Oh, I picked up on the travel allergies - hodophobia. Isn't it nice to learn a new word? :) What I didn't pick up on was the suggestion that his hodophobia is a result of how his parents died. Is that your interpretation, then?

I didn't like Daniel's attitude towards people in the book. And Kowalsky's resentment and attitudes towards Jack are so twisted from what we know of him that it almost hurts. Never mind the idea that a lieutenant was apparently in charge of the Stargate program before they recruited Jack...

I'll touch on the book in the next canon vs. fanon post, don't worry! :)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

the baby was a foster-brother/sister, not necessarily Daniel himself

Heh. I love the fandom's ability to handwave. :)

[green-grrl.livejournal.com]

As for where Daniel has had 52 foster families and been mentally/emotionally/physically/sexually abused as a child...I have NO idea where that comes from.

I can sort of see where it comes from... the people in Catherine's picture were specifically called foster parents, not adoptive parents, and fostering is usually a shorter term arrangement. So if he wasn't adopted, then he very well could have been through multiple homes in the system. And the system isn't perfect -- there are foster parents who abuse or neglect kids. And, Daniel: saw his parents get killed traumatically, has a genius IQ, and may not have been acculturated to the United States. So he could have been a difficult placement. It's not like it's an impossible conclusion to come to. (Though he'd have to be pretty tough-skinned to still be as well-adjusted as he is. And he is pretty tough-skinned...)

However, it is equally possible that after his parents died and Nick didn't take him, he was taken in by close friends of his parents who'd known him since he was born (and were visiting him in that picture). And they never officially adopted, because Nick didn't want to sign him away, but they gave him a stable and supportive home until he went to college (And maybe there you can have the crossover plane crash, or whatever.)

Or it's possible that one family in the foster system took him in (with the younger sibling shown in the photo), and Nick didn't want to sign... etc.

Unfortunately, it's the rotating-door foster home scenario that's in nearly all the fic. Like Daniel doesn't already have enough trauma for the h/c scenarios.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Yes, all those possibilities are valid, although some are more likely than others. So why, as you put it, is it "the rotating-door foster home scenario that's in nearly all the fic"?

I enjoy good-quality whumping as much as the next fangirl, but I really dislike whumping for whumping's sake. And abusive-foster-home!Daniel is just another attempt to make him cuddable, if such a word exists. And I like my Daniel too strong and prickly for cuddling, thanks. :)

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

As for the childhood abuse, it just irks me. While the foster care system is not pleasant, there is no evidence that Daniel was abused in canon. And while there is no evidence that he hasn't been abused, imo, it doesn't suit his character.

No kidding! These drive me nuts! I'm not a psychology or abuse expert or anything, but Daniel is really pretty self-reliant and generally together. He tends to believe in the good of people, to trust people and he understands the importance of family. There is nothing there that whings me as having been treated badly. And, really, he was probably one of the foster kids every foster parent wants - I don't see him being lots of trouble. I hate hate hate stories that talk about how nobody every loved poor liddle Daniel and he bounced from abusive foster situation to the next.

Daniel's had tragedy but isn't what did happen enough? Why make more?

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Gorgeous icon!

And, really, he was probably one of the foster kids every foster parent wants - I don't see him being lots of trouble.

Now you're wandering into fanon territory. :) A kid witnessing his parents' death like that could go in any direction - quiet and desperately obedient, furiously striking out at a world that seems terribly unfair, so traumatized he barely eats or sleeps... Bedwetting, even.

No, I'm not specifically suggesting any of the above scenarios. Quite frankly, I've read very little fic that deals with traumatic abused orphaned Daniel, because I tend to back away from such fics ASAP. I'm sure they exist, though. Technically, we can't know what kind of child Daniel was after his parents' death, so we can't know how difficult it was to foster him. But the abuse thing? It's just too far-fetched to contemplate.

[shutthef-up.livejournal.com]

Personally, what I've worked out in my head (which makes it really no more valid that what other people feel about it), is that teenaged Daniel was pretty well-focussed and self-sufficent, whether he had foster parents or not. That's about as far as I take it. Call it personal fanon, I guess.

Personally, while I know others like thinking about it, I don't dwell too much on what Daniel's childhood years were like. Psychoanalyzing any fictional character that deeply doesn't really appeal to me, because it's just all speculation. But I don't buy into the abuse scenario.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Oh, exactly! Teenaged and mid-twenties Daniel has got to have gotten all that self-confidence from somewhere! Trying to match that up with an abused childhood...? It just doesn't compute.

And yes, those particular years don't hold much interest for me in any case. Let's not get into little!Daniel fics. :)

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

Does it count as fanon if it's my extrapolation of canon and not something I picked up from other fans? :)

I'm not saying he didn't have issues like those you mentioned. But I do think he didn't go to extremes in "badness" - like drugs or skipping school a lot or something. If for no other reason than he probably did really well in high school to get into the higher ed he likely had.

Personally I think kid Daniel retreated into books and studying - languages and history and while he didn't ignore people, he was closer to his books because they couldn't leave him. But that's just in my head.

It's true - we don't know what he was like, since the show hasn't given us much. But we can take what the show gives us and extrapolate - but I've always had a weakness for delving into possible character backstories.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Does it count as fanon if it's my extrapolation of canon and not something I picked up from other fans? :)

Oh, I think we can let you get away with it. :)

For what it's worth, the picture you seem to have of pre-series Daniel meshes quite strongly with my own. Any person who accomplishes so much at such a young age has got to have strong motiviations and little patience for wasting time. Like you, I think young Daniel spent most of his time studying and letting the outside world drift past.

But we can take what the show gives us and extrapolate - but I've always had a weakness for delving into possible character backstories.

Just avoid the cliches! :) And yes, we'll be tackling this soon. Eventually. Really.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

It's from the novelization which was based on an earlier draft.

That explains a lot of the rather bizarre contradictions between the movie and the novel, including Daniel making his constellation-leap by breaking into Jack's office, among other things.

(Though, the pic she shows him has a very young young boy in it, way younger than the age Daniel would have been when his parents died in show canon.)

Yeah, that was one of the first examples I gave of show canon superseding movie fanon... I'm going to run out of those, eventually. :)

And while there is no evidence that he hasn't been abused, imo, it doesn't suit his character.

Daniel's character is incredibly strong and self-confident even with all the canon trauma he's undergone. How could someone justify piling on more just for a little more h/c? There's so much fodder in the canon that looking for more is just way too over the top for me.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I can actually answer this one pretty clearly, because yay! research! :)

In the novellization, Katherine casually breaks into Daniel's apartment (!) and references the plane crash where his parents died. There's no such mention in the movie. And since the novel is hardly on the same level of canon, why bring it in at all - unless you're actively seeking more angst for poor wee Daniel? I mean, doesn't the poor guy have enough?

I know initially it had to do with Daniel's tendency to cross his arms (cold arms), but I think that's reading a bit too much into a bit of body language.

Self-hugging = abuse? The mind boggles, it really does.

[shutthef-up.livejournal.com]

You know, I must apologize. I got involved in the whole abuse discussion without ever commenting on the 'I'm fine' part of your post.

It's late, but here it is.

Daniel squeels, shouts and moans realistically when he's injured, but no more than Jack does. He's not stoic about it, generally, unless he's being tortured, but that's a whole different thing.

I'll also agree that he sucks it up macho-style if he knows there's nothing anyone can do about it or if it would distract his teammates from their duties in a crisis. Once in the infirmary, he tends to behave himself unless he's altered in some way. Jack complains and argues *much* more than Daniel does. Daniel does use his dry and sarcastic humor to defuse concern about him (The Curse).

If it's an emotional hurt, though, I do feel he tends to keep it to himself. I've always felt his "No, but I will be." at the end of Serpent's Song was more about his emotional state than his physical one. It's hard to tell which Jack was asking over.

Anyway, I think this is me agreeing with all your points :)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I've always felt his "No, but I will be." at the end of Serpent's Song was more about his emotional state than his physical one.

I'm assuming you mean Secrets...? But oh yeah. All he did was get clouted across the face by Heru'ur. For Daniel, that's nothing. :) Emotional trauma? Much, much worse. So I agree - that's what Jack was asking about, and that's what Daniel's reply was about.

Glad you liked the post. :)

[shutthef-up.livejournal.com]

Yes, I meant Secrets. I even thought Secrets, but typed Serpent's Song.

What a lovely pastime for a Sunday morning!