Redial the Gate: some episodic meta

[fignewton]

I missed a lot of Redial over this last month, including some really excellent eps. I'll have to go back and add several links to the fanworks! :) For now, a bit of meandering meta...


Pretense

It depresses me to contrast the moral courage of the Tollan in Enigma - Omac might not have been particularly likeable, but he was solidly bound by ethics - and the class act that is Travell in Pretense, and compare that to the utter assassination of a truly admirable race, in all senses of the word, in S5's Between Two Fires. Except some rather ranty meta when the time comes. :) In the meantime, though, I really love the Tollan in this episode. As annoying as it may be for the Tau'ri, the Tollan are actually right. They lost their planet because they gave advanced technology to a world that wasn't ready for it. Burned once, twice shy... at least until that character assassination thing turns up in B2F, of course.

And yet, and yet... Do the Tollan truly have the right to be neutral? Do the Nox? If a people or planet is safe, does that really mean they are entitled to retreat to that safety and abandon those that are still being victimized? The Nox and the Tollan could have saved countless lives if they'd taken the battle to the Goa'uld. The Tollan only did so when they themselves were threatened; the Nox stood by their staunch pacifism. The latter is slightly more understandable than the former, perhaps; but the Nox have their superior technology that allows them to be pacifists, even as they ignore whatever deaths and wars take place outside their jurisdictions. But while Anateus and Opher would no doubt cluck their tongues and call Lya's actions very young, I for one am very glad that Lya chose to walk that narrow line.

And anyway, Lya is adorable beyond words, and she always makes me smile. :)

Back to the Tollan. As I said, they have the right to refuse to supply weapons technology to those they might fear abuse it. And I suppose no one has the right to demand that they help police the universe. But I do think it shows a lack of moral standing on their part, that they are quite happy to kill any Goa'uld that might threaten them, but prefer to ignore any carnage in the world outside their own.

(And no, I DO NOT WANT to draw any parallels or discussions about current events. I almost never police the comments, but I will screen and/or delete any references to RL, so please don't make any.)

So, I have to put all that frustration aside, and marvel at the calm power of the Tollan, that they have the nerve and standing to follow their own beliefs here - to grant both Klorel and Skaara (and what is Skaara to their perspective when they first meet him, but the most primitive of creatures?) their moment of justice. And as I said before, I adore Travell in this episode, for her class and her grace and, most particularly, the way she thanked Teal'c.

Some more things to love: Sam's honesty with Narim. Jack and Daniel, tag-teaming. Teal'c and Lya, the most delightful partners ever. Skaara, dear Skaara, with his courage and his determination and the agony when he describes nearly killing Daniel.

I've mentioned before that I think the show did both Daniel and Skaara a disservice in that Skaara seems to be more connected to Jack than he is to Daniel. Skaara played a major role in bringing Jack back to himself in the movie, yes. And Daniel had Sha're as his focus, true. But Daniel and Skaara had an entire year together as "good brothers," and it saddens me that we never get to see that properly. There's so little of it here: Skaara's pain when he talks about Klorel forcing him to ribbon Daniel, and the joyful slap on the shoulder as Skaara bounces down the steps to greet Jack. Honestly, Teal'c got more emotion than Daniel!

Thankfully, there is fic to fix these things. :) Like Rigel's absolutely delightful moonshine-on-Abydos story, for instance... :)


Urgo

Ah, Urgo. Forty minutes of sheer romping fun, with that extra SG-1 fillip of some thoughtful consideration on the meaning of life (and the universe and everything)!

Favorite moments: the pile-up of guards when the team jumps up from their table at the commissary, then Jack backtracks to snag one last dessert. The amazingly straight faces from Janet and Hammond and all the extras at the absolutely insane antics. So much snark!

Best line ever: "I wanna live, I wanna experience the universe, and I wanna eat pie." SG-1, summed up in one pithy line of dialogue!

I would like to point out that while many ship authors use Urgo as a springboard for the OTP of their choice, it's actually canonical that Urgo can't influence feelings. Impulsive actions, yes. Inducing passion, no. Proof: Urgo couldn't make them like himself. Sorry, writers. :)

However, as a bone to any Daniel/Janet shippers that might be out there, I would like to repeat the very silly observation I made in the past:

I noticed something during the scene in the infirmary, after Urgo first reveals himself and they're trying to explain him to Janet. It's after Teal'c has turned on the defribillator, so there's already the charm of seeing tiny Janet next to towering Teal'c (and knowing that Teal'c is utterly cowed by her, as is everyone on base). Daniel is explaining how Urgo seems to work: "He also seems to be able to enhance our enjoyment of certain experiences in order to motivate us." As Daniel is speaking, it cuts to Urgo, standing next to Janet, staring at her very intently. Not, however, at her face...

This is the ultimate Gen Girl speaking here, and it still screamed at me! Heh. My own take on Daniel/Janet is that over the years, they became quite close, even affectionate; but I have never really shipped them. Urgo, apparently, thought overwise. :)

100 Days

To be honest, I've only watched the entire thing once. I've rewatched bits and pieces of it, but that's all. The story never gripped me, except for the amazing team determination to get Jack back.

Sam trying and trying and doing the impossible. Daniel coping with the refugees and never giving up. Teal'c risking his life. Oh, team.

I liked Daniel doing archeology. I liked the unexpectedness of Jack fitting in, when we think of Daniel as the anthropologist. I like Janet giving Sam support. There is lots to like, yes - but I did find it kind of blah. Not sure why.

I also get rather irritated at the many people who despise Laira. She's a leader of her people, she's intelligent, she's overcome adversity, she has the courage and foresight to keep going... and apparently, the absolute chutzpah to fall for Jack. Mary Sue! Evil woman! How dare she!

Sigh.


Shades of Grey

Oh, team. With a slightly different inflection than that phrasing in my comments on 100 Days, mind you...

I like the flow of this ep coming directly after 100 Days, actually. Are the ongoing thefts the reason why the Asgard can't help get Jack, and why the Tollan claim it'll take a year to send a ship to get him? Did the Curia and Thor choose Jack as their agent, because his three-month absence proved that he wasn't involved with whatever was going on at that time?

But oh, this hurts. Jack coming back after three months, and being told he has to essentially destroy the team that worked so hard to get him back. The slap in the face to Jack, in asking him to do this to his people; to Teal'c, who betrayed his people out of loyalty to Jack and what he stood for; to Sam, who has served with Jack for nearly three years, and has built up a strong respect for him, and now has it thrown in her face; and to Daniel (oh, Daniel), who is treated as a pawn by the Tollan, the SGC, and Jack himself. Oh, ow.

One of the things I admire about this ep is how layered and layered it can be. I can read meta and fic that posit that Daniel knew, that Daniel didn't know, that they always suspected Makepeace, that Makepeace came out of left field for them, that Sam and Teal'c and Daniel drew straws, that they didn't, that the team figured it out, that they didn't... and it all works. Amazing.

One particular argument that comes down strongly in the "Daniel didn't know"column for me: of everyone in the SGC, Daniel is the only one has ever seen Jack at his worst, when it was real: on Abydos, when he was ready to suicide and take an entire planet of people with him. Teal'c and Sam had the luxury of finding Jack's turnaround too bizarre to believe. But Daniel met the Jack O'Neill who faced him down in his living room four years ago, when it wasn't an act at all. I think those memories would have shaken Daniel very badly, and yes - made him question the very foundations of their friendship.

There are a few things I strongly dislike about this ep:

Makepeace. He does not deserve the sheer vilification he gets from the fandom on a regular basis, while Maybourne gets retconned into a loveable rogue (gag). Yes, I've ranted about this before. :) Makepeace did the wrong things, but for the right reasons - unlike Maybourne, who was slime from Day One and even in It's Good to be King takes shameless advantage to gain multiple wives for himself.

Jack and Daniel. This is one case where I actually prefer the popular fanon to canon: that Jack had to keep the act up, because if Daniel had let on that he knew, Jack was afraid Maybourne et al would either abduct him to use as a bargaining chip for Jack's good behavior or have him killed outright. Because otherwise? I don't care if the house was bugged - those two know each other so well that they can have entire conversations just by saying one another's names. Are we really expected to believe that Jack couldn't have put on the act, and yet at the same time warn Daniel that something was up, and to play along?

I also dislike the upcoming Sam/Jack ship, so soon after this episode. Sam's faith and respect for Jack were badly shaken here, and even after they learn the truth, the crack in trust isn't so easily repaired. If there was going to be the suggestion ship at all (and yes, this gen girl wishes there wasn't, but that's another story), then shortly after this incident was not the time to do it.

I welcome everyone else's thoughts. And sorry this is so long. :)

Comments

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

First Sam Carter/Charlie Kawalsky, now Daniel/Janet...what is happening to my co-gen-girl? :-D

Your Tollan meta is too meta-y for me to think through at the moment.

I don't know if it's fanon or canon--I've seen too many variations of the house scene of shades of grey, but this is my interpretation of what happened. I really do think Jack was trying to send Daniel a message between the lines when they met at the house, but Daniel was too upset and hurt to pick up the vibe. And Jack wasn't going to do anything more blatant because no, the team could not be let it on this. They couldn't be suspected of complicity or compromise Jack's cover.

What upsets me more is that scene towards the end when Jack's watching *his team* be the one who steps through the Stargate to pick something up. And Teal'c pauses. I mean Jack *knew* it couldn't be them. He knew it...but yet, I can't help wonder if there was a teeny-tiny doubt implanted (soon extinguished). I know the show was supposed to show us the fakeout, but I do buy it to some extent.

As for 100 Days, Oh sure, use being off the internet as an excuse to get out of rewatching episodes. Hmm. I'll be watching you come season six, missy. ;-)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Hee! The Sam/Kawalsky bit was for the recipient, not by my choice. I really did feel guilty... :)

Oh, yes, I do like that handwave - Jack did try to hint to Daniel, and Daniel was too upset/disturbed/thrown off their usual flawless communication to get it. Yes. Very nice.

As for the fakeout in the end - well, I saw it as very nice turnabout. You had that horrible frisson of doubt about Teal'c, Jack? That's how your whole team feels about you.

Hee! No need to wait till S6 - let's see what happens next season with Prodigy. :)

[kalquessa.livejournal.com]

And no, I DO NOT WANT to draw any parallels or discussions about current events.

I LOVE YOU FOR ALWAYS!

Ahem. Anyway. Yeah, Lya rocks. We should have more of her. She could come visit Teal'c at the SGC and he could introduce her to Star Wars. It would be awesome.

The Tollan are my Very Special Favorite Snooty Aliens (the Nox do not count as Snooty Aliens because they are too classy). The Tok'ra always kind of annoyed me with their Snootiness and the Ancients really just flat-out piss me off, but I like the Tollan. They're Snooty, but they have good reasons to be Snooty, and they're just people trying to do what's best.

Best line ever: "I wanna live, I wanna experience the universe, and I wanna eat pie." SG-1, summed up in one pithy line of dialogue!

It so truly is. Life, the Universe, and Pie. What else is there, in the end.

And: *snrrrrk* Urgo is a Daniel/Janet shipper! Heeee!

... and apparently, the absolute chutzpah to fall for Jack. Mary Sue! Evil woman! How dare she!

We do this in the Supernatural fandom ALL THE TIME. A friend of mine described this behavior by saying that fangirls all become The Mother-in-law when a new female love interest is introduced: we can't believe anyone could be good enough for our boys. This leads me to imagine a horde of fangirls being stiltedly polite to people like Laira until they go to the bathroom, at while point all the fangirls turn to Jack and say "And where did you say you met her, again?" in that voice that means they expect the answer to be "Oh, on this street-corner." Poor love interests. They deserve better, generally.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

She could come visit Teal'c at the SGC and he could introduce her to Star Wars. It would be awesome.

I want to see this fic.

Hee hee the mother-in-law theory. That is too awesome. I think I suffer from it with Daniel than Jack myself. It could explain some of my Daniel/Vala issues (not all, but some).

[beanpot.livejournal.com]

I love the mother-in-law theory. It is just so...spot on!

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

She could come visit Teal'c at the SGC and he could introduce her to Star Wars.

I am totally stealing this as a prompt for the friendathon next year.

I like the Tollan and am annoyed by the Tollan at the same time. I say that takes talent!

Urgo is a Daniel/Janet shipper! Heeee!

That, and he calls Sam "Sammie" - OH NOES! Urgo writes fanfic!

The MIL analogy is delightful, and very apt. Because it's not just that people dislike Laira for interfering with their ship; they seem to dislike her for liking Jack, period. As if all the fangirls wouldn't react the same way if they actually met Jack... ;)

[sg-wonderland.livejournal.com]

Pretense - I wouldn't draw analogies of RL for this, I would, instead suggest one views the Atlantis episode 'Lost Tribe' and ponder Daniel's 'the ends do not justify the means' argument to..somebody in an ugly suit...for those who haven't seen that episode. Sometimes, Dr. Jackson, the ends do justify the means. Teal'c and Lya (and, really, how cute are the two of them together??) may have done an end run around the rules, but they did so for all the right reasons. Which makes what TPTB do to the Tollans in Between Two Fires that much worse.

I'm with you on the Jack/Skaara, Daniel/Skaara thing, he should be so overjoyed to see 'Danyel' that his youthful enthusiasm should be directed toward him and not Jack. I kind of handwave that with the phrase 'no man is a hero to his valet' meaning that Skaara has an idealized picture of them but living with Daniel for a year may have taken Daniel down a notch, whereas Jack is perfect and always succeeds, since Skaara didn't have to see his failing up close and on a daily basis. Just a thought.

Urgo - Favorite lines #1
HAMMOND: Doctor, are we entirely sure the members of SG1 are…what’s the word?

FRASIER : Sane?

HAMMOND : That’s the one.

Favorite lines # 2
DANIEL: Woof?

'Nuff said...


100 Days - Not one of my favorite episodes either. Too much of the time was spent on Jack and Laira:::yawn::::and just how exciting is it to build a particle accelerator? There was just no way to make that interesting, at least not to me.

Shades of Grey - One of my top fives, if just for the Jack/Daniel interaction. My take is that Daniel did, in fact, know and what hurt him was not the harsh words but what he perceived as a total lack of trust (not just from Jack, but Hammond, the Tollan, Nox, etc.)
That scene hurts my heart every damn time I see it and RDA and Shanks were absolute gold here. Jack's icy eyes, his disparaging tone, Daniel trying so hard not to let his heartbreak show, clutching at every little thin straw that be can grasp.
From NCIS, I quote one of Gibbs's rules:
"Rule #7: Always be specific when you lie."
There was just enough truth in there to give Daniel pause to wonder and Jack unmercifully latched onto Daniel's vulnerabilities and laid his heart wide open with his 'I don't really like you at all' attitude.

::hearts Jack and Daniel:::: Both, because I can't believe this is something Jack would readily agree to.
ELG did, to me, the ultimate SoG tag story, Ripples, in which Daniel is kidnapped and Jack and Hammond are forced to spring Makepeace from prison to help locate him. Jack notes, and rightly so, that Makepeace had a pretty amazing record of keeping Daniel alive.
I hated what they did with Makepeace's character, they could have (and should have) kept him around so he could be the face of the adversarial military vs. humanitarian argument. Jack had, by this point, moved so much closer to Daniel's viewpoint that they needed a hard-ass military character.

Favorite line isn't even a line. It's Teal'c's smugly superior nose-in-the-air sniff at the end.

spoilers for SGA's Lost Tribe, maybe

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Oh, some great stuff here!

The thing with ends justifying the means is whether or not you accept the consequences of those means. Frex, Sam and Jack went through the Gate at the end of S1, knowing it might be the ends of their careers... and accepting that possibility. Teal'c killed Sha're, ready to accept it if Daniel never forgave him for it. Daniel rescued Teal'c from the Hammer, knowing it was destroying his chance to save Sha're and Skaara. Teal'c was willing to get kicked off the planet here, if it meant saving lives. The guys in the one-size-fits-all suits didn't much care who else was going to die - they justified their means without accepting the responsibilities for it. And in B2F, Travell does exactly that too - she uses the ends to justify genocide. TOTALLY OOC and so ANNOYING!

I love your suggestion about Daniel no longer being hero-worshipped. But he still should be loved - I wish we'd seen that closeness.

Urgo and 100 Days, yeah. :)

I do think Daniel was shaken by the lack of trust all round. He literally put his life in the line of fire for the Nox in Enigma. He was the one who was honest with Thor in Thor's Chariot. And while I don't believe he's anywhere near as insecure as Saint Daniel authors like to pretend, it must have shaken his confidence to realize that their allies AND the SGC blithely let him put an entire proposal together just to get shot down... like that hasn't happened to him before, hm? Total lack of trust, ow.

Word with the tiny grains of truth to make the whole lie plausible. And yes, as I said in my post - asking Jack to break his team goes against everything he believes in.

And YES to Ripples! Link and rec included in Redial's fanworks post. :) I, too, despise how they smeared Makepeace here.

That wordless chin tilt... Heh. Teal'c pwns all. :)

[sallymn.livejournal.com]

And no, I DO NOT WANT to draw any parallels or discussions about current events. How about previous ones? {g} Because the whole Tollan story has serious echoes of pre WW2 attitudes to me, both pacific and (in Between Two Fires) appeasing... but please delete if you did mean them as well, I don't mean to start anything, just a meek little comment :)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Oh, interesting - Travell as Chamberlain in B2F. Huh.

::puts chin in hands::

Do elaborate. :)

[night-spear1287.livejournal.com]

Pretense:

Complete agreement about Daniel-Skaara. I get that Skaara must feel quite a bit of hero-worship toward Jack, but if I'd been a prisoner of my own body for a few years, I'd go hug my brother first, and then go salute my hero. But that's just me. Jack and Skaara's relationship is kind of cute, though, so I'll live. Also, Alexis Cruz is among my favorite guest stars on SG-1; I really like his Klorel in general, especially in contrast to Skaara.

Urgo:

Teryl Rothery is awesome just for not cracking up that entire time during the infirmary scene (when they're explaining Urgo to her). That's all I have to say.

Shades of Grey:

There's probably little left to say about the team's behavior(s) that hasn't been said before by someone, so I'll just move on to Makepeace.

I actually liked Makepeace's character. Not that I think he was a nice guy, in general, but he did seem to be a good officer with strong morals in his first few episodes. Now, those morals obviously deviate in details (like stealing from alien friends), but it's not like he was in it for material gain or anything; he was trying to help defend Earth. I just remember how determined he was to save SG-1 from Hathor, and while he might have 'left Jack behind,' well, his course of action was arguably more responsible. Also, he helped the Tok'ra move to a new home in "The Tok'ra," and he probably didn't start out as part of the rogue NID...so what I'd like to know is when and why he joined Maybourne--was it something like what Jack was faking in Shades of Grey? Did he lose too many men on some mission and decide the SGC was going about it wrong?

(I actually haven't watched "100 Days" yet. Oops. I will, eventually.)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

If we want, we could handwave that Daniel and Skaara had a lovely emotional reunion offscreen - after all, it's pretty obvious that Daniel was there when Klorel was extracted. It's just frustrating that we have to imagine it, instead of seeing it!

And yes on Cruz doing a superb job - his whole posture changes, everything. Great stuff.

Teryl Rothery is ALWAYS awesome. I think there's a rule. :)

Yes and yes on Makepeace. I made pretty much the same argument back when Redial was doing Out of Mind/Into the Fire. You can check out the discussion here, along with a fic rec that explains Makepeace's decision to join Maybourne. There are some excellent observations in the comments.

As for not watching all the eps... I still haven't seen Prodigy. Or nearly all of S6. Or either Felger ep. As you say... eventually. :)

[suzannemarie.livejournal.com]

The Nox and the Tollan could have saved countless lives if they'd taken the battle to the Goa'uld. The Tollan only did so when they themselves were threatened; the Nox stood by their staunch pacifism. The latter is slightly more understandable than the former, perhaps; but the Nox have their superior technology that allows them to be pacifists, even as they ignore whatever deaths and wars take place outside their jurisdictions

See, I fully support the Nox stance and am like to think that their pacifism is a reflection of them and not of their comfortable existence. [Full disclosure: I come from a religious and cultural tradition that holds pacifism as one of it's central tenets. So this is an issue that's sort of close to my heart.] I think there's a tendency in the culture at large to view pacifism and passivism as equal. And they're not. (I'm not saying that your post is doing that. I've been thinking of this issue with regard to something else, so it's been on my mind.) Pacifism and pacifists can be quite active and can make a positive difference in outcomes without ever carrying a weapon.

This is partly why I don't regard Lya's action as particularly antithetic to the Nox way. In our very first meeting with the Nox, we saw them actively protecting the weak by making them invisible. We also saw them healing enemy and friend alike. We saw them actively decline SG-1's "protection" even when it meant exposing risk to their own lives during the healing ritual for the young Nox. They are willing and able to risk themselves in support of their beliefs, even in moments when the easiest course to say "never mind the non-violence this time." I guess under those terms, and my own biases, I see Lya's actions in Pretense as not so much shifting any balances of power so much as keeping them even(er). Had the Goa'uld not made a move against the Tollan, her hiding the one ion canon wouldn't have made a difference--ultimately it was the Goa'uld action that brought the reprisal. And I suspect that Lya was also comfortable with her action knowing that the Tollan weaponry is purely for defensive and not offensive purposes. She's not actively opposing the Goa'uld or preventing them from being, well, Goa'uld-ish. Her one act allows the Tollan to use their own technology.

Which is not to deny that Lya was walking a very fine line. Nor is it to deny that I've talked myself around so much in this post that I'm not entirely sure what I'm saying anymore.

Wow, did that go on and on. I'm a little embarrassed now.

---

On another note: Urgo is love.

*try the paddles*

"I wanna live, I wanna experience the universe, and I wanna eat pie."

Hey, who doesn't? :)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Thanks for some very interesting thoughts here. I do see it as a reflection of themselves, yes - but I also wonder if it's not so much a reflection of their technological existence, but a luxury of it. You're right that they do have a proactive stance - on their planet, which is what I was wondering about. They do draw a line - they don't care about weapons outside their purview, so how active can their pacifism be?

They are willing and able to risk themselves in support of their beliefs, even in moments when the easiest course to say "never mind the non-violence this time."

Yes, you are absolutely right. I certainly wasn't condemning the Nox, or their pacifism, either... just throwing out the idea, in the hopes of inspring a discussion like this one. :)

Good point, too, that Lya's actions are only shifted into defensive/offensive mode if the Goau'ld cheat first.

And yes - Urgo IS love. :)

[dknightshade.livejournal.com]

Pretense

I love the Tollan too. As superior and annoying as they could be at times, I thought they were very real. And they were certainly right to want to keep from getting burned a second time. Definitely a cool race of beings. I was very sad at the end of BTFs.

100 Days

With you on the Laira-hate. I don't get that either. But it's a function of me not being an OTPer, I guess.

And I adore Teal'c going through the gate and digging his way out. The man is amazing. I don't get why he and Jack aren't shipped more (because the subtext is totally there).

Thanks for doing the meta. It was nice to read on a rainy, gloomy day.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Glad it lightened the gloom for you a little... :)

I don't ship anyone (duh), but I do love how each team member has a unique connection with each of the other three. And the link between Jack and Tealç is nothing short of amazing.

[sg-betty.livejournal.com]

And yet, and yet... Do the Tollan truly have the right to be neutral? Do the Nox? If a people or planet is safe, does that really mean they are entitled to retreat to that safety and abandon those that are still being victimized? The Nox and the Tollan could have saved countless lives if they'd taken the battle to the Goa'uld. The Tollan only did so when they themselves were threatened; the Nox stood by their staunch pacifism. The latter is slightly more understandable than the former, perhaps; but the Nox have their superior technology that allows them to be pacifists, even as they ignore whatever deaths and wars take place outside their jurisdictions.
And then there's the Ancients, whose lack of action seems reprehensible...

I noticed something during the scene in the infirmary, after Urgo first reveals himself and they're trying to explain him to Janet. It's after Teal'c has turned on the defribillator, so there's already the charm of seeing tiny Janet next to towering Teal'c (and knowing that Teal'c is utterly cowed by her, as is everyone on base). Daniel is explaining how Urgo seems to work: "He also seems to be able to enhance our enjoyment of certain experiences in order to motivate us." As Daniel is speaking, it cuts to Urgo, standing next to Janet, staring at her very intently. Not, however, at her face...

This is the ultimate Gen Girl speaking here, and it still screamed at me! Heh. My own take on Daniel/Janet is that over the years, they became quite close, even affectionate; but I have never really shipped them. Urgo, apparently, thought overwise. :)
I never noticed that - I'll have to have a look. Also being of the Gen persuasion, I don't ship any of the characters, but have always thought that if TPTB had decided to go there, I would have accepted it much more than the other fan 'ships. That's partly because it seems like a rather natural match, in keeping with the characters as presented in canon, and partly because there is no impediment in tems of military law. She wouldn't have been able to treat him, of course... That's all water under the bridge, though. It was hinted at, almost entirely by the actors, but it never happened, and with Janet's death became just too cruel a thing to do to Daniel - at least in my opinion. ; )

[sg-betty.livejournal.com]

I also get rather irritated at the many people who despise Laira. She's a leader of her people, she's intelligent, she's overcome adversity, she has the courage and foresight to keep going... and apparently, the absolute chutzpah to fall for Jack. Mary Sue! Evil woman! How dare she!
I never had any problem with Laira, since the Sam/Jack ship makes me want to shake the both of them until their teeth rattle - just me, I know ; ) We all have our crazy biases... Seriously though, here's a woman who lives in a small town. Her husband is dead, she knows all the other men in town, and clearly isn't interested in any of them. A guy like Jack appears out of the blue - really, what's a girl to do? And who wouldn't have, in her place? ; )

One particular argument that comes down strongly in the "Daniel didn't know"column for me: of everyone in the SGC, Daniel is the only one has ever seen Jack at his worst, when it was real: on Abydos, when he was ready to suicide and take an entire planet of people with him. Teal'c and Sam had the luxury of finding Jack's turnaround too bizarre to believe. But Daniel met the Jack O'Neill who faced him down in his living room four years ago, when it wasn't an act at all. I think those memories would have shaken Daniel very badly, and yes - made him question the very foundations of their friendship.
I'm with you on that. I also agree that Makepeace was badly treated by the writers. I would have prefered that they introduced another character earlier in the season specifically to use for this. They could have made it just as surprising without ruining a good character.
To me, the whole point of this episode is that Jack screwed over his team (royally)in the interest of a greater good, and the moral questions it raises about what is 'worth it'. How far to you go to protect an alliance? To prevent a crime? At what point do the ends not justify the means, and at what point are superiors asking too much of their officers. If the team knew, then these questions become meaningless.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I had less trouble with the Ancients' lack of action until the Ori storyline. I didn't agree with it, but from the Ancients' POV, interfering with "lowers" would be the equivalent of humans interfering with the goings-on in an anthill. The scurrying ants aren't concerned with nuclear warfare or the Hubble telescope...

The Ori changed everything, though, making it something that was happening on their plane. Leaving it up to a few defiant mavericks like Merlin and Morgan was unforgiveable.

(And I'm not even going to start with SGA, where the Ancients apparently saw the entire universe as their DNA playground, as far as I can tell from what little I've picked up from SGA fans. I don't follow the show, so I'm not qualified to comment.)

Re Daniel and Janet - as you say, the actors themselves decided to play up the idea a little. Fun subtext... which is the only way I ever want to see ship. :)

[aelfgyfu_mead]

I would like to point out that while many ship authors use Urgo as a springboard for the OTP of their choice
THEY DO? I now resolve more firmly than ever not to read ship! (Okay, the occasional slash with nothing explicit, but het does nothing for me--which is odd, because I'm het....)

I can't understand what they do with Maybourne. He tried to have Daniel shot, for heaven's sake, and he had no way of knowing Lya would stop him! Makepeace does far less, as you say. He's not trying to hurt anyone; he thinks he's protecting people! But in a way that's scarier, that someone with good motives can do so much harm. But he's neither evil nor slimy.

Are the ongoing thefts the reason why the Asgard can't help get Jack, and why the Tollan claim it'll take a year to send a ship to get him? Did the Curia and Thor choose Jack as their agent, because his three-month absence proved that he wasn't involved with whatever was going on at that time?
I never thought of either of these! I like both these ideas!

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

THEY DO?

::sporfles:: We had a Redial mods chat the other night, and the question of which eps in S4 are considered shippy came up. I kept typing? "WHAT? That's shippy!?" "WHAT?" You would've fit right in. :)

But in a way that's scarier, that someone with good motives can do so much harm.

Oh, yeah. I'll buy that. But it's so out of left field... I think even the actor was shocked, IIRC from what I've read.

[redbyrd-sgfic.livejournal.com]

I know exactly what you mean about 100 Days not being gripping, and I think it's because the team spends pretty much the whole episode split up. Heck, Daniel and Teal'c barely get to do anything.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

But we got your Marking Time out of it, so it wasn't all bad. ;)

[randomfreshink.livejournal.com]

In Pretense, this is one where I buy Skarra's reunion with Daniel being awkward. Because of Sha're. While there's the bond of family, there's also the baggage of family -- Skarra failed Daniel in a sense in that he didn't protect Sha're. Failed to save his sister, his husband's wife. And that's going to hurt. It's going to be awkward between them.

Then to skip to Shades of Gray, an episode I adore (and I love the opening of 100 Days more than anything, to me that one just had pacing problems because so much of the action has to be off-screen with "three months later" and it sort of leaves you wanting a two-parter and more of the three months), on this one I have to say I kind of like that it was Makepeace.

To me having it be Makepeace who was stealing tech kind of shows just how that side of the argument does have some honor in it. Makepeace is someone who is going for the end justifying the means--he's a patriot in his own mind. And I like that it's not just "someone" but someone who really believes in his cause -- even if I think he's totally wrong, he sells that he's in it with honor (unlike the rest of Maybourne's crew who come off bitter oportunists). So that worked for me.

And Daniel and Jack in this one -- it gets me every time with Daniel watching from the shadows as Jack leaves. Kind of makes me think there that Daniel does have issues with people leaving -- major ones, and ones he so hates to admit, or let in.

My vote is for Daniel knowing something is up in Jack's living room -- Jack's eyes dart away when he tells the big lie, and that body language screams lie. But the lie is also a slammed door in Daniel's face, as in, Jack's not going to tell him a damn thing -- which just has to piss Daniel off more than anything.

But it's one of those situation where you know Jack's kind of loving the chance to be the hero--and it must be such a relief on this one to know he is not leading his team into danger, that it's just his neck on the line. (Which is also going to so piss off his team.)

As to the Tollan....love Omac, but Travell creeped me out from the start. That stiff fake smile....(shudders). Never liked her.

I could see aruging for both them and the Nox that staying out of it is perhaps learned (as in they never had any good come from it), but you could actually argue that the Nox don't have offensive weapons (and they don't). The Tollan do--and for them not to take a stand at some point with the Goa'uld is a bit high and mighty of them, which brings their downfall from the Goa'uld to a bit of ironic poetic justic really.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Yes, of course there's going to be tension between Daniel and Skaara re Sha're. There's a very bleak drabble out there - by Katie M., maybe? - where Skaara backs away from Daniel and begs Jack to keep them apart, because he can't bear to answer Daniel's questions about what Sha're's life must have been like as Amaunet's host. (Must find the link for Pretense's fanworks, and link to my own little ficlet, too...)

BUT that doesn't absolve the show of putting all the tension and anxiety re Skaara's fate squarely in Jack's corner, as if Daniel doesn't care that much and Skaara doesn't reciprocate.

My problem isn't so much that Makepeace made that choice - as you say, it adds more layers of grey, which is always a good thing. My problem is that it's totally, absolutely from left field, and that the fandom absolutely pillories Makepeace while making good ol' Harry into a loveable rogue. It's just - ugh. Yes, the actor for Maybourne has fantastic onscreen chemistry with RDA, but that doesn't absolve Maybourne of his slimeball status.

I do love Shades of Grey, as I said, for the sheer number of possibilities. It's also very scary to think of how much could have gone wrong, so easily. What if Daniel had quit in the aftermath? What if Teal'c had abandoned Earth for Jack's betrayal before the truth came out, and gone back to the Jaffa? What if Sam had spotted Makepeace doing something illegal, and been badly caught in the crossfire?

We need more AUs. Those are always good. :)

I also wonder, sometimes, if Daniel did realize. But it also meant he realized that Jack felt their friendship was worth sacrificing for whatever purpose he had in mind...

I did adore Travell in Pretense. She seemed so cool and above it all. which just made her actions (so OOC!) in B2F even worse.

There are very few defensive weapons that can't be used for offensive purposes. Invisibility getting you close enough to an enemy to fire a fatal shot, frex. I'm just saying. I do think the Tollan were hoist on their own petard - but they didn't have to be. Would it have killed them to tell Earth what was happening, and ask for help? Also, it's clear the Curia betrayed their people's ideals in B2F - why else keep it secret? But the entire planet paid for it. Not so ironic, that.

[vikki.livejournal.com]

My favorite moment in Urgo is actually when Teal'c drinks the coffee. Straight from the carafe. And everyone stares at him. And then he makes that really satisfied sigh and I just giggle incessantly.

Hammond: "Wasn't that hot?"
Teal'c: *totally straight face* "Extremely."

I have nothing of value to add to this post! I just really, really like Urgo: I think it's the funniest episode in the series.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

It's one of my favorites, too - in-character humor is always great.