SFA really open for noms this time! Plus, some pre-Canon vs. Fanon meta.

[fignewton]

The Stargate Fan Awards really are open for nominations now. We have until December 31st. Once you've logged in (or created an account), the site is easily navigated. I'm having some personal trouble with some of the coloring for the text boxes, but I've dropped the SGA team a note and I hope to see that revised soon.

So far, I've nominated six vids. I can see this is going to be an ongoing process... so yeah, better to get started now. :) I've bookmarked the "Manage My Nominations" page, which should help.

And now for some meta, because believe it or not, I really do have another Canon vs. Fanon in the works!

While skimming some S6 transcripts (heh, how else can I do S6 research...?), I discovered a most interesting exchange in Memento:

Jonas: How many planets have SG-1 been to?

Teal'c: One hundred thirty three.

So, after nearly six years, they've been to 133 planets. That comes out, in average, to about 22 planets a year. Now, contrast that with Mitchell's pride in 200 about his 200th time through the Stargate... Hmm. Even with the obvious conclusion that Mitchell isn't counting missions but event horizons, aren't those numbers just a little out of proportion?

I think I'm going to sneak this little factoid into the next Canon vs. Fanon, which will be about offworld, because many fanfic writers have the team Gating out weekly at a minimum, if not even more frequently than that. A list of 133 planets (and I adore Teal'c for having that information effortlessly at his fingertips) contradicts that rather strongly. Unless, of course, you suggest that Teal'c was making up a number at random - but the timing seems wrong for that kind of thing, and as far as I can tell, Teal'c did not have that kind of "straight man" relationship with Jonas. If I'm wrong about that, I'd appreciate correction from those of you that have actually watched S6. :)

ETA: I have now edited the subject of this post and the tags to reflect that this has essentially turned into a canon vs. fanon debate. As always, my flist rocks. :)

Comments

[sg-betty.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Even if they visit worlds repeatedly after the first visit (makes sense in terms of the research teams, but no a first contact team like SG-1-unless it's entirely for Sam and Daniel's research), I'm thinking that I've had the notion that they went through the gate way more often than they actually do.
Looking forward to the Meta!

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

Well, number of planets isn't the same as number of missions. They've been Chulak multiple times, Abydos multiple times, I think Land of the Light a few times, etc. They went to the "Double Jeopardy" planet more than once too.

Also, I wonder how it's counted in terms of "SG-1" - does Daniel going somewhere with an archaeology team count as SG-1? Does SG-1 going somewhere with Jack or Daniel or Sam or Teal'c count as SG-1? How many members do you need for it to count?

(I'd be curious to count for the first few seasons how many planets/event horizons we see - some episodes we get more than 2 event horizons - they go back and forth to check on things (2001, Other Side, Between Two Fires, etc))

It's possible the numbers are off and possible they're fine.
(and, ack, I have 5 days to write 2 papers, 2 presentations and take two finals. Why am I think about *this*?)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

As Abyssis points out below, they certainly did visit planets multiple times (particularly Chulak and Abydos and the Alpha Site!); but it's interesting to discover that it's less frequent than most fanfic authors would suggest, isn't it?

Hoping for this week, but don't hold your breath. :)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Oh, you're absolutely right - number of planets doesn't necessarily equal number of missions. Add the Alpha Site to that list, too! And Tollana, and Vorash, and the Eurondans new homeworld, and lots and lots more.

But multiple trips through the Gate aside (how many times did they go to pleasure palace in The Light...?), it still adds up to a lot less than most writers imply.

I miss all those multiple wormhole effects we got in the early seasons, sigh.

Number of planets? Well, Arduinna has those kind of listings. She lists 85 different planet designations, although some of those seem to be throwaway references. That doesn't include planets whose designation we never hear. I didn't go into her listings in detail - I'll have to check it out before I include it in c vs f.

And we're thinking about this because, um, we have fandom squee? Yeah, I'll buy that. :)

[redbyrd-sgfic.livejournal.com]

Something else to consider- in S1, they had to calculate the stellar drift for each planet- Sam says something to the effect that it will give them a new world to visit every 2-3 weeks (I think in COTG or Enemy Within)- and that assumes they're good addresses. That doesn't really change until after The Fifth Race, when Jack gives them a) a faster equation for calculating stellar drift (I think) and b) lots of new addresses. So we could find that there are a lot fewer worlds visited in at the very beginning.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I love your canon brain! :)

That's a great point, that the number of planets should have increased almost exponentially after The Fifth Race. However, that's only in S2. By the time Teal'c gives that number to Jonas, four more years have passed - if they did visit planets as frequently as fanfic writers suggest, the number would've been much, much higher. It really is only the very beginning that would be affected.

They didn't visit every planet on the cartouche or on Jack's programmed list, though. Consider that in Fallen, Jonas suggests they leapfrog the list to Vis Uban in the hopes it's the Lost City. Sam says then that they've sent probes to "less than a quarter" of the Ancient addresses.

Of course, they didn't find the Lost City, but they did find their lost archeologist, so it's not as if it was a wasted trip... :)

[ziparumpazoo]

I would think that given Teal'c's love of precision, he would only count trips made by the complete SG-1 among the 133. He wouldn't count anything less than the full deck.

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

True, but I'm still not convinced that 133 planets necessarily means averaging a mission a week wouldn't work. But I guess I'll let you do the canon vs. fanon legwork and then argue with you :)

I miss all those multiple wormhole effects we got in the early seasons, sigh.

I don't miss the effects so much as I miss them using the 'gate....if that makes any sense. (ie: I'm okay not seeing them go through it everytime, but I want the adventures to involve the fact that they USE THE BIG GIANT RING IN THE BASEMENT. *ahem*)

Yeah. I'd be tempted to run through episode lists myself. But then you have times like "Shades of Grey" where we see several planets...though again that's the question of what you count in terms of "SG-1"...

And we're thinking about this because, um, we have fandom squee? Yeah, I'll buy that. :)

that works. And it might be more fun than some of my finals :)

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

(heh, how else can I do S6 research...?)

You could watch the really good episodes because there are oodles of examples of Jack and Teal'c and Sam and Hammond and Janet and, heck, Jonas being really awesome :)
Also, it includes the ultimate "Jacob and Bra'tac are cooler than EVERYONE" episode :)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting suggestion. I think there were a lot of planets where only part of SG-1 went on the mission. The super-hot planet in Fifth Race, frex. The planet where Sam and Daniel found Jacob in Tangent. The planets Teal'c explored when he was trying to find Sam and Jack in Solitudes. What about the eight or so missions between S5-6, when they were trying to find a fourth? Would you count those?

This is going to be more challenging to work out than I thought. Not that I'm complaining... :)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Hee! We'll see when Redial hits S6...

Also, I have seen the ep of sheer Jacob and Bra'tac awesomeness. Aurora sat on me, figuratively speaking. Definitely worth it. :)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Yeah, make me do all the hard work. Such torture... :)

I, too, will not complain about not getting the effect, especially since we don't get the right effect anymore. ::pouts:: But yes, writers - see the title of the show? The most awesome prop in television ever, and they IGNORE it!

One would hope fandom squee would be better than finals, yes. ::squishes Abyssis::

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

Someday you are going to have to break down and watch the other nineteen episodes. (I thought you had started on some).

So, after nearly six years, they've been to 133 planets. That comes out, in average, to about 22 planets a year. Now, contrast that with Mitchell's pride in 200 about his 200th time through the Stargate... Hmm. Even with the obvious conclusion that Mitchell isn't counting missions but event horizons, aren't those numbers just a little out of proportion?

Yes, this was argued about when 200 aired because Mitchell's number doesn't quite add up. However, you could consider multiple trips to the same planet. Like Teal'c's been to the Land of Light or Tollana a few times. Look how many times they've been to the Alpha Site. (er, like I now see abyssinia4077 just stated.

And you just know I'm going to smack you up side the head with the complete list of planets (http://www.stargate-sg1-solutions.com/wiki/Planets_By_Episode) I've audited and done articles on (this is every planet mentioned and or visited by *any* SG team, but the snippet should specify team references, so if you want to count them up...). Can also check Teams by Episode (http://www.stargate-sg1-solutions.com/wiki/SG_Teams_By_Episode).

Also, as per what redbyrd said. Just because new planets are found every 2-3 weeks doesn't mean SG-1 is the one to always visit them. ;-)

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

See see see see!

You know not the full power of S6 awesomeness.

[aelfgyfu_mead]

Some missions are particularly long, though, or there are interruptions between. I will have to leave it to those with better memories or more times to look them up than I've got, but just glancing at an episode list, here are some thoughts:
• Children of the Gods/The Enemy Within: I had the sense that a fair amount of time passed between these initial adventures, with trips to Abydos and Chulak, and "Emancipation." They need time to sort everything out and decide on a team. I'm figuring weeks between the start of the series and "Emancipation."
• Fire and Water: doesn't this one take at least a week itself? They lose Daniel, they have to get things sorted enough to have a funeral; I'm figuring that's three to four days minimum. Then they have to get him back. Then they probably have a few days of downtime while evaluating Daniel--especially after they find out what Nem did to his head (at Daniel's insistence!). Two weeks total?
• Prisoners and The Gamekeeper: how long is SG-1 gone in each of these? More than one day each, perhaps a few days each.
• Need: between the time SG-1 is in slavery, then they're back on Earth but Daniel goes completely through withdrawal and is cleared to return to the planet, I think we must be talking an absolute minimum of two weeks--quite possibly a month.
• 1969: how many days after SG-1 goes time-tripping do they return?
• Out of Mind/Into the Fire: SG-1 has been missing for over three weeks before the rescue attempts start.
• Legacy: I figure days for this one, minimum, and then some time to make sure everyone's clear.
• Forever in a Day: The events of the episode take very little time, but Daniel won't be on active duty for days after having his brains scrambled; in fact, they probably wouldn't even let him leave the planet for the funeral (which they must have held, and not just in his head!) for a week. They might well then insist he take some down time, whether he wants it or not.
• A Hundred Days: This one takes about a quarter of a year! In third season, they either packed a lot of missions into the other 38 weeks of that year, or they had a lower average, allowing for more missions in other years.
Okay, I ran out of energy before I got quite through the third season.

My point is that if you figure some missions (and recoveries therefrom) take a couple of weeks, occasionally more, you've got to have other weeks where they are on a mission just about every week. If we figure they wait a month after the return from Chulak for "Emancipation," we've then got about twenty-one new planets in forty-eight weeks, but "Fire and Water" probably takes another two to three weeks by the time Daniel can go planet-hopping. Then we're down to twenty planets to hit in forty-six weeks, which is a planet every two and a half weeks. To get that average with the injuries and imprisonments the team has had (including some that might not be shown), plus training time (Sam and Jack probably need a certain number of flight hours, and Daniel needs to work on his hand-to-hand and possibly weapons; Teal'c trains other people) and visits back to planets they've already visited, there are probably some weeks where it is a mission a week!

I'd guess Teal'c only counts missions the full team goes on as full missions. And the later we get, the more times we go to the same planet, so a new mission doesn't increase the number of planets visited, as in Thor's Chariot, Family, and Secrets. 1969 might take weeks out of that one year, but they don't even go to another planet.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Oooh, thank you for the link! That'll be hugely helpful.

See, you and Redbyrd are just compounding my point - it makes no sense for fanfic writer to suggest that the team goes on missions on a weekly basis. Return trips, maybe. New missions, no.

I've seen - three, I think, that aren't Daniel eps. Smoke and Mirrors. The awesome Jacob and Bra'tac one, whatever i's name is supposed to be (because obviously it's real name is "Jacob and Bra'tac are awesome!"). And, um, I don't remember what else. Ah well. S6 will hit Redial soon enough. :)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

::stares longingly at icon::

I will see, I suppose. Perhaps. :)

[nomadicwriter]

Well, Teal'c's numbers give 22 brand new planets visited each year, or roughly two a month. Considering he's not counting return visits or perhaps any time a single member of SG-1 makes a trip alone, I think it's not unreasonable to estimate that the individual members average about four back-and-forth trips a month.

Mitchell, if he's counting every single event horizon, has made 100 back and forth trips in, what, a year and a half? So that's 5-6 a month. Which is more, but then, as redbyrd_sgfic says, in the early years the SGC were hampered by calculating stellar drift for new destinations, and also the alpha site was not really up and running as somewhere they'd go to regularly. (Mitchell, let's be honest, strikes me as somebody who would gleefully volunteer to join every routine trip to deliver MREs if given the opportunity.) Then there's diplomatic relations with the free Jaffa, which gives them more regular-visit destinations.

Plus, of course, the biggest factor is that the Ori war is on. They're racing to visit as many planets as possible before the Priors get there, and regularly checking in with ones they've already visited to see what's going on. So the schedule of missions is going to be a lot faster-paced than the "explore new places in search of useful stuff" mindset of the early years. So, yeah, I think Mitchell has been making more trips than early-years SG-1, but that the numbers work out fairly plausibly given the changed circumstances.

[ziparumpazoo]

Rough work, I'm sure. ;P
Seeing as how Teal'c has been counting the number of times they've saved the world, as well as the number of planets SG-1 has been to, I think he's probably got a list of the number of planets he's been to without member X of SG-1, member Y, or any other combination, or the times he's gone alone since he's been living with the Taur'i. It could be just my interpretation of Teal'c though....

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Wow! Trying to do all my work for me, are you? :)

You're absolutely right that the "average" doesn't nec'ly work out. Out of Mind/Into the Fire was weeks. 100 Days, of course, takes... 100 days. :) Red Sky took weeks, too. So yes, there would be some more frequent missions somewhere along the line! And, of course, there has to be time in between missions. So I agree that there might be occasions when they have missions more closely spaced together, but I still would imagine that it's nowhere near the frequency fanon suggests.

You understand, I haven't done the research yet, although you and Aurora seem to be doing it all for me. :)

We see them walk through the Gate, on average, 20 times a season, and there are plenty of references to other missions ("the stuff you drank that made you..."). Of course, in S4-5, half the eps took place on Earth (mutter mutter) so I suppose it does average out a bit, after all.

1969 might take weeks out of that one year

Huh? "Real" time, weren't they gone for only a couple of days? Long enough for their absence to be recognized (although that might have been as early as a failed check-in) and definitely overnight, but probably not more than that. Mind you, SG-1 has aged ridiculously in comparison to real time - there's a perfect example!

[pepper-field.livejournal.com]

Maybe they went to a lot of moons, and Teal'c is being deliberately evasive / literal / nitpicky? c.f. Prodigy, Paradise Lost... (I'm not deliberately citing a season 6 one and Prodigy there, it's just those are the only two I remember. *g*)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

You're fudging your numbers just a bit, but with averages, I suppose that doesn't matter. :) I agree that it's quite possible that there were times the team went back and forth on almost a weekly basis, but fanon often suggests one completely separate mission after another, and that's what I'm questioning here.

I don't think the stellar drift thing really makes that huge of a difference - it's only one and a half years that were hampered that way. OTOH, I adore your suggestion that Mitchell would seize any and every opportunity to bounce through the Gate, and you're right that the SGC was doing a lot of back-and-forth visiting - and very very little exploring - once the Ori crisis hit. So yes, I agree that the numbers can add up under the circumstances.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I can't say that my own vision of Teal'c has him so obsessed with numbers. :) I see him keeping track of the things that matter, yes - like saving the world, heh. But would Teal'c really care so much about details like that? Don't forget the Stargate has been a regular part of his life for eighty or ninety years. Not that there's anything wrong with the picture of Teal'c in your head, even if it's not quite the same as mine. :)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Hee! Maybe, who knows? I did wonder if Teal'c was deadpanning Jonas. There's an interview with CJ somewhere where he invents a number, out of whole cloth, of the number of times Teal'c has said "indeed"... :) Is there any evidence in S6 of Teal'c pwning Jonas like that?

And yeah, sure, like I'll believe that. ::sticks out tongue::

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

*blink*

Of all the AWESOME episodes in season six you choose to watch Smoke and Mirrors???

I still think a weekly basis is believable...under normal operations. For instance, after....Solitudes?...where Sam and Jack are in Antartica? It must have taken a minimum of 6 weeks for Jack to recover (probably longer given that the leg looks like nasty break AND he's got broken ribs and internal bleeding and he's older - less likely to bounce back as fast) so you have to add in extra time for recovery from injuries. Or things like Jack spending 100 days on Edora. So *if* everything is working and *if* everyone is healthy and *if* there aren't pressing reasons for someone on SG-1 to be with another team, I could believe weekly. Odds are it doesn't happen terribly often :)

I also like the suggestion that the first two or so years they didn't visit as many but as time went by frequency went up (which makes technological sense).

Also...how do we deal with the fact that some missions likely take a LOT longer than other missions?