Despite this being new Stargate for me, I know a little more about this one than most other S6 eps for which I only skimmed a transcript over four years ago. That, of course, is because this ep plays a major role in S8 by being the beginning of Replicarter. As ![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
abyssinia says, Replicarter is arguably one of the best villains to ever grace Stargate. She induces the same horrified fascination as Absolute Power!Daniel - one of the good guys, but with all the brakes off. AP!Daniel, however, lasted a single ep and never existed outside Daniel's (and Shifu's?) mind(s). Replicarter, in contrast, nearly took over an entire galaxy. And, like AP!Daniel, it makes all us wonder, just a little, how very very dangerous Sam would be if her moral compass went AWOL. That has to be fun. :) Aby, BTW, will be recapping this ep for ![[info]](https://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/community.gif)
redial_the_gate later today, and I fully expect it to be utterly squeeful!
Despite all that, I have to confess that I'm not a real fan of human-form Replicators (I'll call 'em HFRs from now on). Replicarter, hoo boy yes. But the idea of HFRs are, to me, a major letdown from the visceral creepiness of metal lego bugs. It's also a bit, hm, anthropomorphic-centric? The spider forms were much more efficent. Why not pattern themselves after the Asgard, fr'instance, who they've been fighting all these centuries?
Ah, well. Here we go. As always, liveblogging of reaction without really discussing the ep. Onwards!
Daniel and Reece! I'd forgotten the Asgard took her. Ah, Daniel. ::misses him::
That "previously" of an Asgard (Thor?) talking about Reece - where is that from? Revelations, maybe? I've only watched it once and I regret to say that wasn't when Redial featured it last season.
So a dumb ship rather than a dumb idea? :) And hey, JONAS MEETS THE ASGARD. Woo hoo! Why doesn't Thor ask who he is?
It is hilarious that poor Teal'c still hasn't had a chance to take that stupid cap off. I mean yes, he looks good in black and all, but it's not like he needs to hid anything at this point, does he?
"You instructed every Replicator out there to come to you...?" "I have a theory why you lost the war." Hee, Jack! And speaking of dumb ideas, instead of this elaborately arranged trap, why didn't the Asgard tell the Replicators to "come forth" in the vicinity of a black hole or something?
Er, Thor, not asking for much, are you? And if they activate the device, how do they leave?
::grins:: Thor, you showoff. At least the prisoners and annoying reporter woman can get home, though.
"I hope you did the paperwork." ::sporfles::
DO NOT LIKE that Jack didn't tell Thor that he needs to talk to Hammond first. I mean, I love the Asgard's little gray butts and all that, but Jack doesn't have the right to make this decision on his own.
Ah, yay, thank you, Jack! "It's not my ship. It's not up to me." Thor just jumped the gun.
Siler!
Love, love that grin on Hammond's face. "Colonel! It's good to see you alive and well." Awww, George!
BEST LINE EVER: "You might want to get upstairs and punch one on the old speed dial."
Blank, puzzled look: "My grandchildren?"
Jack: "Two, then." BECAUSE GEORGE HAMMOND IS AWESOMESAUCE TIMES ELEVENTY.
"Sir... we can't call it the Enterprise." Bwah! And Sam's grin, hee hee hee.
"...I'm hungry." "...Cargo Bay Three, sir." And again Sam's expression! How she puts up with his insanity... :) Don't answer that, shippers, thank you.
THE ICE CREAM SCENE! No one told me this ep has some of the most classic glee bits in S6!
Do not meddle in the ice cream of the Jaffa, for they are not all that subtle. <-- I thinknomadicwriter has an icon to that effect...
::giggles:: No one told me Teal'c switched flavors on Jack! I love all this interplay going on right underneath Jonas' obliviousness.
Thor's eyes narrowing is oddly adorable.
"What is with you people?! Time machines are nothing but trouble. Even we know that!" With a side look at Teal'c. :) Window of Opportunity still grates, apparently. Although Jack seems to forget that come Moebius.
Shoes and footwear - it's not like the Asgard reallly get that metaphor, heh.
That visual of the contrast in size between Thor's ship and Earth is fabulous. Still a long way to go.
Jack training Jonas, wheeeeeee!
No sign of Replicators, but the surface is completely smooth. Urgh, what if the surface is Replicators?
Halla used to be an Asgard world, right? So did the Replicators do something to the weather?
Eeee! I was right about the Replicators being the surface! Man, walking on that would be downright nauseating. "Watch your step," yeah.
Structure is all fancy and futuristic on the outside and cobwebby bricks on the inside? On an Asgard world? Ooookay.
Y'know, starting a timer is one thing. But how does Sam know how to reverse the time dilation? (Although that will obviously come in handy four years later in the Episode I Will Not Talk About.)
Fifth! In a funky jacket.
Okay, so let me speculate here. I can buy the HFRs looking, well, human because they're somehow patterned after Reece, okay. I like that there are two women there, although if Reece was their inspiration, I'd expect more women than men, and certainly that the first one would be a female. But the accent from HFR #1...? Someone has been watching Star Wars again, apparently. Also, I would've liked to see actors with slightly Asian features, like Reece had.
"Ah." BLAM BLAM BLAM. That is so perfectly Jack that it makes me grin. :)
No reaction from the HFRs to the gunplay, which surprised me - the one in the beginning of S8 was affected, although it could easily heal itself. But the sound of advancing bugs is delightfully creepy. And yes, this is why I feel the HFRs are a big step downwards in feeling the menace of it all.
"We're in your unconscious mind." "You'd think there'd be more lights on." Aside from Jack's usual snark, that line is awesome on so many levels, particularly Jack's tendency to play dumb when he thinks it would help.
The iris code.... ::shivers:: And then, of course, Jack has to say, "Here's one for you. I'm thinking of an animal." Ah, Jack. He even makes Replicators laugh!
Uh oh. That was a mistake, HFR. You DO NOT MESS with the memory of Charlie.
It may all be in Jack's head, but I'm glad we got to see the Stargate somehow in this ep.
Teal'c has beautiful, elegant fingers. I think that should be said.
Where's Jonas? ...Ah, there he is. Poor guy - couldn't the HFRs give him a chair?
Temple? Huh. Jonas arguing for talk instead of blowing things up didn't make me nostalgic for Daniel, but that does.
"Anyone hungry?" Yes, this refers to the invitation "to dinner," but I can't help thinking of the last time Jack mentioned that towards the beginning of the ep.
Water bottles. A bowl of apples. Two watermelons. I want to know who chose the menu here. :)
The "boy girl boy girl" things reminds me of the Auditors in pTerry's Thief of Time. I still wonder why they didn't go with a female first, though.
Can't help feeling a little sorry for Fifth here as his weaknesses are openly discussed and dismissed. Poor guy has never met chicanery before, much less the minor manipulation of praise. Also, I wondered why Sixth didn't have the same "flaw," but the dialogue implies that Fifth was a test case they abandoned.
That moment when the bugs drop down on the table, and Jack jumps back just as I flinch at the screen? Yeah. I rest my case - classic Replicators are much more creepy and horrifying than HFRs.
Not too painful for Sam, this time. And I find it very, very hard to watch that scene without thinking of the interplay between Fifth and Sam in S8. She's all earnest and appealing to his logical nature even as she goes for the emotional twist, and... okay, yes, I know how that ends. It's kinda ow all round.
I would absolutely NOT use a Replicator-block table to haul myself to my feet. YUCK.
I have to believe that Sam really did mean to take Fifth along with them. I refuse to accept that she manipulated him so coldly by suggesting he can get there faster when she knew they'd trick him. "You won't leave without me?" "...No." And then she gives him a time that's a fraction too late, and oh Sam. I can't even say for sure that Jack was right. Controlling one HFR may or may not have been easy, but if he's willing to learn, might be willing to be controlled, the Asgard might've... oh, SAM. I'm glad Aelf wrote that ep tag, and I have to go reread it again very soon.
I thought the time bubble spans light years, not just the whole planet?
"...She promised." And the others didn't just smash the timer why?
As Jonas and Sam said, they used Fifth's humanity against him... and taught him it wasn't worth being human. This is Jack making the hard and brutal decisions, yes. I would've liked to get Teal'c's reaction, too.
...Whew. This ep packs quite a punch. Still think HFRs are a mistake, but the promise of Replicarter makes up for it, I guess. :)
abyssinia says, Replicarter is arguably one of the best villains to ever grace Stargate. She induces the same horrified fascination as Absolute Power!Daniel - one of the good guys, but with all the brakes off. AP!Daniel, however, lasted a single ep and never existed outside Daniel's (and Shifu's?) mind(s). Replicarter, in contrast, nearly took over an entire galaxy. And, like AP!Daniel, it makes all us wonder, just a little, how very very dangerous Sam would be if her moral compass went AWOL. That has to be fun. :) Aby, BTW, will be recapping this ep for redial_the_gate later today, and I fully expect it to be utterly squeeful!Despite all that, I have to confess that I'm not a real fan of human-form Replicators (I'll call 'em HFRs from now on). Replicarter, hoo boy yes. But the idea of HFRs are, to me, a major letdown from the visceral creepiness of metal lego bugs. It's also a bit, hm, anthropomorphic-centric? The spider forms were much more efficent. Why not pattern themselves after the Asgard, fr'instance, who they've been fighting all these centuries?
Ah, well. Here we go. As always, liveblogging of reaction without really discussing the ep. Onwards!
Daniel and Reece! I'd forgotten the Asgard took her. Ah, Daniel. ::misses him::
That "previously" of an Asgard (Thor?) talking about Reece - where is that from? Revelations, maybe? I've only watched it once and I regret to say that wasn't when Redial featured it last season.
So a dumb ship rather than a dumb idea? :) And hey, JONAS MEETS THE ASGARD. Woo hoo! Why doesn't Thor ask who he is?
It is hilarious that poor Teal'c still hasn't had a chance to take that stupid cap off. I mean yes, he looks good in black and all, but it's not like he needs to hid anything at this point, does he?
"You instructed every Replicator out there to come to you...?" "I have a theory why you lost the war." Hee, Jack! And speaking of dumb ideas, instead of this elaborately arranged trap, why didn't the Asgard tell the Replicators to "come forth" in the vicinity of a black hole or something?
Er, Thor, not asking for much, are you? And if they activate the device, how do they leave?
::grins:: Thor, you showoff. At least the prisoners and annoying reporter woman can get home, though.
"I hope you did the paperwork." ::sporfles::
DO NOT LIKE that Jack didn't tell Thor that he needs to talk to Hammond first. I mean, I love the Asgard's little gray butts and all that, but Jack doesn't have the right to make this decision on his own.
Ah, yay, thank you, Jack! "It's not my ship. It's not up to me." Thor just jumped the gun.
Siler!
Love, love that grin on Hammond's face. "Colonel! It's good to see you alive and well." Awww, George!
BEST LINE EVER: "You might want to get upstairs and punch one on the old speed dial."
Blank, puzzled look: "My grandchildren?"
Jack: "Two, then." BECAUSE GEORGE HAMMOND IS AWESOMESAUCE TIMES ELEVENTY.
"Sir... we can't call it the Enterprise." Bwah! And Sam's grin, hee hee hee.
"...I'm hungry." "...Cargo Bay Three, sir." And again Sam's expression! How she puts up with his insanity... :) Don't answer that, shippers, thank you.
THE ICE CREAM SCENE! No one told me this ep has some of the most classic glee bits in S6!
Do not meddle in the ice cream of the Jaffa, for they are not all that subtle. <-- I think
nomadicwriter has an icon to that effect...::giggles:: No one told me Teal'c switched flavors on Jack! I love all this interplay going on right underneath Jonas' obliviousness.
Thor's eyes narrowing is oddly adorable.
"What is with you people?! Time machines are nothing but trouble. Even we know that!" With a side look at Teal'c. :) Window of Opportunity still grates, apparently. Although Jack seems to forget that come Moebius.
Shoes and footwear - it's not like the Asgard reallly get that metaphor, heh.
That visual of the contrast in size between Thor's ship and Earth is fabulous. Still a long way to go.
Jack training Jonas, wheeeeeee!
No sign of Replicators, but the surface is completely smooth. Urgh, what if the surface is Replicators?
Halla used to be an Asgard world, right? So did the Replicators do something to the weather?
Eeee! I was right about the Replicators being the surface! Man, walking on that would be downright nauseating. "Watch your step," yeah.
Structure is all fancy and futuristic on the outside and cobwebby bricks on the inside? On an Asgard world? Ooookay.
Y'know, starting a timer is one thing. But how does Sam know how to reverse the time dilation? (Although that will obviously come in handy four years later in the Episode I Will Not Talk About.)
Fifth! In a funky jacket.
Okay, so let me speculate here. I can buy the HFRs looking, well, human because they're somehow patterned after Reece, okay. I like that there are two women there, although if Reece was their inspiration, I'd expect more women than men, and certainly that the first one would be a female. But the accent from HFR #1...? Someone has been watching Star Wars again, apparently. Also, I would've liked to see actors with slightly Asian features, like Reece had.
"Ah." BLAM BLAM BLAM. That is so perfectly Jack that it makes me grin. :)
No reaction from the HFRs to the gunplay, which surprised me - the one in the beginning of S8 was affected, although it could easily heal itself. But the sound of advancing bugs is delightfully creepy. And yes, this is why I feel the HFRs are a big step downwards in feeling the menace of it all.
"We're in your unconscious mind." "You'd think there'd be more lights on." Aside from Jack's usual snark, that line is awesome on so many levels, particularly Jack's tendency to play dumb when he thinks it would help.
The iris code.... ::shivers:: And then, of course, Jack has to say, "Here's one for you. I'm thinking of an animal." Ah, Jack. He even makes Replicators laugh!
Uh oh. That was a mistake, HFR. You DO NOT MESS with the memory of Charlie.
It may all be in Jack's head, but I'm glad we got to see the Stargate somehow in this ep.
Teal'c has beautiful, elegant fingers. I think that should be said.
Where's Jonas? ...Ah, there he is. Poor guy - couldn't the HFRs give him a chair?
Temple? Huh. Jonas arguing for talk instead of blowing things up didn't make me nostalgic for Daniel, but that does.
"Anyone hungry?" Yes, this refers to the invitation "to dinner," but I can't help thinking of the last time Jack mentioned that towards the beginning of the ep.
Water bottles. A bowl of apples. Two watermelons. I want to know who chose the menu here. :)
The "boy girl boy girl" things reminds me of the Auditors in pTerry's Thief of Time. I still wonder why they didn't go with a female first, though.
Can't help feeling a little sorry for Fifth here as his weaknesses are openly discussed and dismissed. Poor guy has never met chicanery before, much less the minor manipulation of praise. Also, I wondered why Sixth didn't have the same "flaw," but the dialogue implies that Fifth was a test case they abandoned.
That moment when the bugs drop down on the table, and Jack jumps back just as I flinch at the screen? Yeah. I rest my case - classic Replicators are much more creepy and horrifying than HFRs.
Not too painful for Sam, this time. And I find it very, very hard to watch that scene without thinking of the interplay between Fifth and Sam in S8. She's all earnest and appealing to his logical nature even as she goes for the emotional twist, and... okay, yes, I know how that ends. It's kinda ow all round.
I would absolutely NOT use a Replicator-block table to haul myself to my feet. YUCK.
I have to believe that Sam really did mean to take Fifth along with them. I refuse to accept that she manipulated him so coldly by suggesting he can get there faster when she knew they'd trick him. "You won't leave without me?" "...No." And then she gives him a time that's a fraction too late, and oh Sam. I can't even say for sure that Jack was right. Controlling one HFR may or may not have been easy, but if he's willing to learn, might be willing to be controlled, the Asgard might've... oh, SAM. I'm glad Aelf wrote that ep tag, and I have to go reread it again very soon.
I thought the time bubble spans light years, not just the whole planet?
"...She promised." And the others didn't just smash the timer why?
As Jonas and Sam said, they used Fifth's humanity against him... and taught him it wasn't worth being human. This is Jack making the hard and brutal decisions, yes. I would've liked to get Teal'c's reaction, too.
...Whew. This ep packs quite a punch. Still think HFRs are a mistake, but the promise of Replicarter makes up for it, I guess. :)
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Someone tried to handwave it by suggesting that Reece's "father" was an Alteran (or Ancient, or whatever you want to call it). It doesn't fit for me. I find myself kinda annoyed for the writers for introducing Replicators in the Pegasus Galaxy, actually; it suggests that their evil space vamps weren't enough, so they had to go back to what worked on SG-1. Sloppy writing, that.
it's cheaper than doing other stuff
::feigns shock:: Oh, surely NOT. :) :) :)
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So there are, in the replicator story, three cases of really smart aliens thinking they're smarter than they are and being destroyed by their hubris--the Ancients (with the Wraith whom they created the Replicators to fight), Reese's creator (who took the Ancient replicator-nanites and experimented with them, creating Reese who created her "toys" and taught them to protect themselves and replicate), and the Asgard, (who took Reese's Replicators and experimented on them until they broke out of containment and started eating everything in sight). I know Stargate wasn't ever what one might call subtle, but even for them that's hitting the theme pretty hard.
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Can you point me to the canon for that? As far as I know there is no canon evidence that the Ancients had anything to do with Reese or the SG-1-verse replicators. It's a very common fanon and a reasonable assumption, but as far as I know it's never made canon in any SG-1 episodes.
Unless it happened in SGA S5, which I haven't watched yet (I don't care if I'm spoiled) and is then arguable since it would be retconning SG-1.
I mean, the SG-1 replicators have as their driving force to replicate. That's it. The SGA replicators are *capable* of replicating but their driving force is to kill Wraith, not to replicate and grow. They are different in their base functioning.
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In the ep you just watched, don't the HFR's say they got part of their code from stuff that they found in Reese and didn't have in the bug-replicators? It's never specified what that code is, but it's logical it has something to do with their appearance (because it matches hers, and that would make sense if it came from the Ancients originally--they're big on creating stuff in their image).
So yeah, it's fanon, but based on a logical progression and a lot of things that are implied but never directly stated to connect the dots.
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Regarding Menace, they don't know what the tech on Reece's planet was like, because there's nothing there except Reece - it's all stripped down to bare girders. They do wonder why the Replicators left an obviously advanced piece of tech alone, but there's no implication that the tech that was eaten was necessarily more primitive.
I don't understand Ancient/Alteran/whatever timelines very well, and anyway we never get an exact idea of when the Four Great Races had their alliance, but the idea that the Asgard have been battling the Replicators for who knows how long and never knew they were Ancient-inspired...? Ugh.
Let's put it this way - I don't know when Pegasus HFRs were introduced, but I'm guessing it was NOT in SGA S1, which parallels SG-1 S8 in the timeline. So when SGA brought in the HFRs, there weren't Replicators in the Milky Way anymore. So we never get any cross-canon from one show to the other - even in Ark of Truth, which is post Pegasus HRFs but never mentions that connection at all.
I strongly dislike the premise of SGA Replicators, to be honest. I think the writers should've kept the villains and antagonists separate and unique. And while I know it's terribly unfair to judge something I've never actually seen, I confess that I see the Pegasus HFRs as a shameless ripoff that tries to retcon SG-1's versions into something they never were.
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The origin story is that as the Ancients were losing the battle with the Wraith (which, I think, is after the Ancients left Earth due to the plague but before they fled Atlantis and returned to Earth and settled the Milky Way and Ascended, but I'm still unclear on that timeline) and the replicators were one of their desperate attempts at a weapon. It makes sense as a weapon that could feasibly spread like a virus to destroy the Wraith, and they programmed them with aggression and a root command to kill Wraith (versus the SG-1 replicators with the root command of, well, be fruitful and multiply :) )
It turns out they made the Asurans more self-aware, intelligent, and capable of learning (so they could adapt and better destroy Wraith) than they thought and they figured out how to congregate and form shapes and emulated their creators. Eventually the Ancients decided it was a mistake and they were too aggressive and to dangerous and went to the planet where the Asurans were and blew it to smithereens (not long before they left the Pegasus Galaxy) but a few nanites survived and eventually rebuilt.
They also managed to turn off that root command where their single driving goal was to kill Wraith and developed a pretty nasty dislike for the Ancients, who they see as neglectful parents who tried to kill them. To them, Tua'ri are then the favored sibling and they're kinda bitter. When the Asurans learn Atlantis still exists, they want to destroy it (bitter at Ancients) but one of them, Niam (see the name reuse? Niam, Nyan), is a representative of a group of Asurans who wants to become less violent and learn to Ascend, and helps the SGA team stop them from destroying Atlantis. They repay him by, oh, betraying his trust and leaving him floating in space.
So, yeah, it's certainly possible that SG-1's replicators were derivative, but they were significantly less sophisticated and Pegasus replicators have no metal spiders. Plus, point about the Asgard. I'm not clear whether the Ancients were around when the Asgard were fighting Replicators, but if it was separate, it's believable they wouldn't see metal spiders as anywhere near the same thing (different form and function, etc).
Also, man, this conversation has reminded me that my first ever stargate fic was an SGA story...in which the Asurans (replicators) featured heavily. I really do have patterns, huh? :P
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That's... pretty infuriating that the didn't learn from what happened to Fifth and behaved the same way to Niam here. And the Asurans' chip on their shoulder certainly makes lots of sense.
Thanks for your explanation! But y'know, it seems to me that SGA and SG-1 9-10 are just one long proof that the Ancients regarded this plane of existence as a litter box. :)
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Nope. But the guy who plays Nyan does play a scientist in a S1 episode who goes with John and Rodney to visit another planet and ends up mostly eaten by a Wraith and then shooting himself (um, it's actually a good episode and he's a very memorable one-shot character and his story was handled well, it just doesn't sound it in summary).
That's... pretty infuriating that the didn't learn from what happened to Fifth and behaved the same way to Niam here. And the Asurans' chip on their shoulder certainly makes lots of sense.
Yeah. It's funny cause I was backwards and watched SGA first. And I actually found the Asurans pretty interesting in SGA and then when I watched SG-1 and saw how they handled the human-forms and realized Liz Made The Exact Same Mistake (and was clearly aware of the SG-1 mission reports and such) I got kinda cranky (it's also when I realized exactly how much SGA was just reusing SG-1 ideas and scripts)
Thanks for your explanation! But y'know, it seems to me that SGA and SG-1 9-10 are just one long proof that the Ancients regarded this plane of existence as a litter box. :)
I'd say the entire gateverse, honestly. About the only useful thing they left behind was the 'gates themselves. SGA gets me extra pissed off about how incredibly irresponsible their science was.
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Nope. Sam thinks the ruins on the planet are an advanced civilization:
(CARTER: Looks like it was once an advanced civilisation, Sir.
DANIEL: No survivors.
O'NEILL: No bodies either.
DANIEL: Based on the overgrowth, I'm guessing this place was destroyed a long time ago)
Odds are most of the tech was consumed by the spider replicators as they grew and replicated.
So it's possible that the civilization Reese is from is Ancient, but it's never stated either way and we've certainly found high-tech civilizations in the Milky Way who aren't Ancient. And even if they were Ancient, Reese's construction isn't really like Human-Form-Replicators and her spiders aren't something we've seen with Asurans, so it's even odds whether any component of Asuran design or programming would have been used for her.
In the ep you just watched, don't the HFR's say they got part of their code from stuff that they found in Reese and didn't have in the bug-replicators?
Yep.
(FIRST: When our Replicator brethren discovered the android Reese, they realized she was their creator. They studied her design and form and found aspects of her technology superior to their own.
SECOND: Our brethren are composed of ungainly blocks.
THIRD: We are composed of millions of cell units, microscopic in comparison, that combine to create this form.
FIRST: The flaw in the emulation programming was discovered during my creation. We attempted to correct the error in the creation of Fifth. But thus far, he has proven to be far too…Weak)
So we know the SG-1 verse HFR's modeled themselves after Reese physically and for their emulation program to be able to act/interact. But them matching her, their creator, makes sense regardless of who created her.
I agree you can certainly make a solid, logical argument that the SG-1 replicators are a result of the Asurans, but it's entirely based on speculation and the assumption that Reese's original planet was an Ancient colony. Plus, well, the SGA-universe didn't even have human-form replicators until after the SG-1-verse replicators were destroyed, so it's going to be a mess of retconning anyway.
(Mostly I got pissed when the Atlantis people first met the Asurans, that Liz did the Exact Same Thing to them, betrayal-wise, given how well that worked out the first time. Can't these people EVER learn?)