Addendum to Canon vs. Fanon, part 14: How old is Sam, really?

[fignewton]

There was considerable discussion in the comments section of the Sam Carter edition regarding Sam's actual age. If you're interested in reading the details that lead to the final conclusion (the screencap from Entity doesn't work, but Sam is still younger than Daniel), this link will take you directly to the new analysis.

And thanks, Codger. :)

Comments

[ali888.livejournal.com]

I know very little about the military but wouldn't Sam have been a Lieutenant before being promoted to Captain?

Also what did she do in the years between leaving the Accadamy in and being assigned to SGC in 2007? She presumably spent three to four years gaining her Masters degree and then another three to four years getting her PHD. She flew some sort of planes during the First Gulf War and spent two years at the Pentagon trying to get the Stargate Programme up and running. Then there's the year between the original Abydos mission and the setting up of SGC. That's a total of ten to twelve, not eight, years. That pushes her birthday back to 1963-1965, even if she was commissioned as a Captain rather than a Lieutenant when she left the Accadamy.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I probably know less about the military than you do. :) But why do you suggest that none of these things can be done at the same time? As far as the SGC timeline goes, we know that Sam was trying to open the Stargate in '94-'95 and spent '96 and part of '97 researching (at least partly) time travel via the Gate. Other than that, though? Fair game. Maybe Sam earned more than a bachelor's degree at the Academy; who knows? The point is that we don't know; all we can do is speculate and work with the little data we do have. I trust Codger's timeline. I'll leave it others, more informed than me, to clarify further. :)

[(Anonymous)]

I can't see Sam writing a thesis whilst in the Gulf! I suppose she could have been completing her PHD at the same time as working at the Pentagon but I imagine that the military would have been extremely selective as to whom they picked for such a secret project and I can't see them picking someone who was still studying. Add in the fact that Sam wasn't working exclusively on the Gateway to Heaven project, she assisted the scientist we met in 'Bane' with a completely different speciality (genetics???), had time to design the dialling computer for the Stargate and had enough of a social life to get engaged...I just don't buy her being born as late as 1967.

Could she have earned more than a bachelor's degree at the Accadamy? Maybe but she also had to spend time doing 'Airforce' stuff; learning to fly, weapons training, unarmed combat, first aid, fitness training, Officer training, possibly history of the Airforce and probably a whole lot of other stuff as well. Would she have had the time?

[ali888.livejournal.com]

Sorry, that last comment was from me.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Yep, understood that.

Would she have had the time?

Sam? Co-head of Overachievers Anonymous (together with Daniel)? Oh, come now. Of course she could've managed it. :)

I've always imagined Sam as being born in the early 60s, just like you. But canon does seem to say otherwise. Cramming huge amounts of life into a small amount of years isn't exclusive to Sam, don't forget; Jack turns out to be not only Special Forces, but also a test pilot (don't try and tell me those two normally go hand in hand). And our dear Daniel, of course, managed twenty-three languages and three degrees by thirty.

None of these people are going to take the typical, normal, or easy route. We have to remember that. :)

[ali888.livejournal.com]

"I've always imagined Sam as being born in the early 60s, just like you. But canon does seem to say otherwise."

Now, I don't really remember any canon about Sam's age. She mentioned that she flew planes during the First Gulf War and she's mentioned all those things she's done over the years. I think that any sort of time-line of her life is based on fans' interpretations of Sam's achievements. Jack said he was forty in S1, Daniel said he was four and a half in August 1969 in S2 (contradicted by his date of birth given as July 8th in S3) and Teal'c gave his age in S4. The writers have been much more coy about Sam's age for some reason.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I think they're coy about Sam's age just to be annoying. Can you think of another reason? :)

For the record, though, "forty" might be a general rather than exact number. I tend to be suspicious of nice clean zeroes and fives. It's why I absolutely accept Daniel's 23 languages in S2, even if others find it hard to believe; it's such a specific number. Prime, even. :)

[6beforelunch.livejournal.com]

It's why I absolutely accept Daniel's 23 languages in S2

Hey, it's not unprecedented (http://www.mezzofanti.org/mezzofanti.html). *g*

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

That's just... wow. The mind boggles.

Although "Biblical" and "Rabbinic" Hebrew are identical, in my experience. But whew!

So, yeah. 23 by late S2, and several more canonically by S10... that's our boy. :)

[tejas.livejournal.com]

The academy only give undergrad degrees. There are other, graduate level schools (the various War Colleges, for example, I suspect there are more), but most likely given the experiences of folks I know, she would have attended a non-military university for her grad level degrees.

As for them being done at the same time, the military rarely works that way. When you're given a job, you do *that* job, nothing else. When they sent her to grad school *that* would be her duty station (and given how Sam has been portrayed, I can't see them NOT insisting she get advanced degrees - you don't put a racehorse to the plow). She might have had other postings between the academy and her Master's (she'd've had to to 'fly' in the Gulf War and still be younger than Daniel), but it's not terribly likely. I need to ask around and find out if I know anyone who got a PhD in the military. It might be different than medical school.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

It's quite possible that the military track is different from the medical one. My college experiences are outside the U.S., so I really don't know how things work.

I suspect the bottom line is that the writers didn't think too clearly when they created Sam's stats. That doesn't surprise me for some reason. :) So she has too much accomplished at too young an age, yes - but then again, that's probably par for the course for the SGC. No one there will ever be accused of being normal!

[tejas.livejournal.com]

If she weren't military, it would work just fine, but there's structure there that just doesn't give for anyone.

See, one of the biggest beefs I have with her being born in the latter half of the 60s is that I think they'd've run her through grad school right after the academy so as not to risk losing their 'treasure' to some university who'd offer her a full ride instead of whatever grunt work the military put her to instead of grad school.

Oh.

Damn.

I just thought of something.

Remember, she'd had her sights set on NASA? She *had* to have gone to flight school. And I'd be willing to bet that her dad eased her way even if he didn't tell her about it. Flight school's 54 weeks, I think.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I'll give you the structure, as that's Codger's strongest argument for the timeline as he posits it. I don't know about the grad school and everything else; I just know the captain-to-major thing is based on solid canon and AF-fact.

One thing, though: I'd be willing to bet that her dad eased her way even if he didn't tell her about it.

If that's an implication that Sam got an easy ride in any shape or form, I'm going to disagree with you. Very strongly. No woman claws their way through the military because it's easy - and that's talking about today. Fifteen to twenty years ago was exponentially worse.

[tejas.livejournal.com]

No, not an easy ride, just that I doubt the AF would have *allowed* someone of her brainpower to be 'wasted' on flight school without someone somewhere saying "C'mon! She can do it and look, she could be an astronaut down the road! Think of the PR!" Not nepotism so much as being willing to argue the point in the right places.

Though I still want to know how she avoided a Board of Inquiry (or whatever it's called in the AF) after First Commandment.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

But I don't think they do make exceptions, even for Sam, on going to grad school after. (my experience is Army, not Air Force). And yeah, you've got the gulf war and pilot training too.

But it comes back to how long she's in rank. And she couldn't be born in the early sixties and only become a major in 1999. She'd have been drummed out of the service. Even giving a few months here or there because of canon timeline v. "our" timeline, they've been staying close enough to real life that it can't be much different (and certainly not make her birthdate older than Daniel's).

[tejas.livejournal.com]

More than anything else, I think TPTB screwed up royally. :-)

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

Remember, she'd had her sights set on NASA? She *had* to have gone to flight school.

Not necessarily. There's pretty much two ways to become an astronaut - either the pilot track or the science track.

You either need to have so many hours flying military-type air craft (you, I think, can sorta get this not in the military, but it's pretty much impossible) and that'll qualify you for the Commander or Pilot type positions. And most astronauts in this track come from the Navy, rather than the Air Force. (also, it helps to have science or engineering leanings)

If you go the science route you pretty much need a PhD (technically only a masters) and to be, well, awesome. That'll put you in more a Mission Specialist position. In this case, it helps a lot to have some flying background.

So, yes, Sam was set on NASA, but she didn't necessarily need flight school to get there. In fact, she probably would be better off playing to her strengths as a scientist to try to to go the Mission Specialist route (where I think she'd be happier anyway) but having Air Force experience wouldn't hurt and I have firm personal canon that she knows how to fly (private license, glider training, something) but that doesn't mean the Air Force trained her to fly jets.

And, well, if she wanted flight school, I see no reason she couldn't have gotten in without Jacob's help, but that's neither here nor there. Given what we see in eps about the F-302 I don't think she's a trained Air Force jet pilot.

[tejas.livejournal.com]

Given what we see in eps about the F-302 I don't think she's a trained Air Force jet pilot.

Really? I got the impression from those that she *had* been trained as an Air Force jet pilot (when being the question).

As for astronauts, IIRC, most, if not all, of the military personnel are also pilots, even if they're in there as mission specialists. Is it required? I don't recall. But consider the person who wants to be an astronaut. What are the odds that they'd NOT get pilot training if they could?

Ultimately, TPTB screwed up because we've got a paradox. One the one hand, due to when she got her promotion to major, we can only backtrack so far. But then there's her time in the Gulf and the time it would take for her to have her training and education and her previous postings (that we know of) which all adds up to longer than the time we've been led to believe she was in the Air Force. The simplest explanation for the obvious discrepancy is that she was in grade longer than she should have been for some reason.

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

Really? I got the impression from those that she *had* been trained as an Air Force jet pilot (when being the question).

I just assume since we never (unless I'm forgetting something) see her actually fly an F-302 (she sits second seat with Jack - more the navigator/instrument role while Jack flies) and since she does not have pilot's bars on her dress uniform, she isn't trained to that level. I firmly believe she has some form of flight crew training and knows how to fly (private pilot's license or somesuch) and I think there's a good chance she had some pilot training - but likely only basics (not specializing to fighter jets or something).

It's true, most military personnel who become astronauts are pilots - but that makes sense if you look at the possible tracks. I'm pretty sure it's not all, but I could be wrong (and being pilots could meant very different things - you can be a pilot with jet fighter school, etc). I agree Sam would try to get pilot training but that doesn't mean she did necessarily.

See, though, Codger has shown that the timeline can work - perhaps would take luck and skill to make it happen, but everyone on SG-1 is stretched just to the other side of believability - it's part of what makes them all awesome. Only the best for the flagship team of the SGC and all.

[tejas.livejournal.com]

One of the issues I have with his timeline is that it A. astrophysics of the 60s is far different from astrophysics in the 80s and B. sad to say, it's going to be far more difficult for a woman to get through the program, NOT because she's less capable or intelligent, but because physics is one of the last bastions of the Good Ol' Boy network in academia. Nowhere is sexism more rampant than in physics. (I work in higher ed and have known many *MANY* physics grad students of various stripes - women get all sorts of lovely roadblocks thrown at them that have nothing to do with their ability and everything to do with their gender.) It's gonna have taken her closer to five years just to get through the crap she'd have to deal with.

As to the missing bars on her uniform. Props again. Don't trust 'em, they lie. Just look at Jack's stars when he was dealing with Prior!Daniel.

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

Oh, believe me I know. The, um, atmosphere, among physicists is one of the reasons I traded my planned physics degree for a chemistry degree instead and, yes, physics can still be really bad in a lot of places (though computer science is really bad too in that respect - possibly worse), particularly with gender issues.

It's possible she lucked out with the right school and the right advisor and enough tenacity and brilliance to pull it off - but I do have trouble believing anything less than 4 years in grad school (and 4 is stretching).

See, props can be funky, yes (Jack's stars) but...if you look for patterns, it works. Sam's uniform never (I believe) has pilot's wings. I'm comfortable considering a consistent prop to be canon evidence.

[tejas.livejournal.com]

I'm not comfortable considering any kind of prop detail like that canon.

And yeah, I could see her managing in four years. I have zero trouble with her brilliance, just trouble seeing that even a woman as brilliant as she is could go through too rapidly. Just the fact that she DID it, is pretty amazing. Most women end up getting run out of the field. The stats are very depressing.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

I know you and I are never going to agree on this, but I've finally got to speak up on the props as canon argument. LOL! Because details in the uniform they do show are checked with the military advisors they have (do they always listen, no...see Atlantis, but with SG-1 they do try to make it work).

Writers may not have a say in the props, but the writers of Stargate are also the producers, and they DO have say in the final product of the show. Some to a higher degree than others, I'll definitely grant you, but I don't dismiss a prop out of hand because it's all part and parcel of the final product.

The Shroud uniform stars was a blooper for sure, but there's been bloopers in dialogue too (see how many years Jacob's had a symbiote or calling Jack's homemade ZPM "Asgard technology"). I don't necessarily dismiss any/all props as canon just because it's not "stated out loud" in the show.

As for Sam having issues as a woman and getting her doctorate in the early 90s as opposed to the 1960s? I do agree it stretches credulity. But

[tejas.livejournal.com]

They ditched their military advisors quite a few seasons ago.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I do think you're being a bit sweeping, here. :) Not everything that is a prop warrants automatic dismissal.

Yes, props do get messed up on occasion. And yes, the writers tend to leave vague phrases like "backdrop of schematics for honking big ship" in the scripts. But some things have been readily uniform (pardon the pun) year after year; and just as I accept the prop of Daniel's glasses, I accept other things, too.

YMMV, and apparently does. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. :)

[tejas.livejournal.com]

And I can live with that. ;-) I do see the reasoning behind your stance and I can respect it. I just happen to put more importance on other aspects. I think we're probably only disagreeing on the matter of about four years or so. Ultimately, TPTB have left it oddly ambiguous given the solid ages given for the three guys. It drives me NUTS! :-);-)

[hsapiens.livejournal.com]

I got the impression from those that she *had* been trained as an Air Force jet pilot (when being the question).

Assuming that flight school in Sam's time was like it was in 2001/2002, she was trained as a fighter pilot while in flight school. My cousin went through more recently and all of the pilots were trained in both types of aircraft before being assigned into either "fighter" or "bomber" tracks for their career.

I agree that they're trying to shove too many major accomplishments into too short a time period. They do it for all of the characters except Teal'c and I find it quite annoying. I think, though, it's a common problem with television.

[hsapiens.livejournal.com]

I'm butting in here late since I'm just now getting around to reading all of the comments. My cousin completed her Air Force flight school relatively recently so I have some info as to how it was in 2001/2002. The Air Force trained all of its pilots in both fighters AND bombers during flight school. After flight school, the pilots are assigned into either bomber pilot or fighter pilot tracks. Once in a track, a pilot may change aircraft but not type of plane. The only exception is for the pilots of the Stealth Bomber who, owing to the weirdness of required hours in the air and limits on how many Stealth flights they can make, have to have a second plane type and *they* get to fly both fighters and the Bomber. :)

So, it's possible that Sam was tracked into bombers but she would have been trained to do both. Assuming they hadn't changed it up in the time between when Sam would have been there and the time my cousin was.

[ali888.livejournal.com]

"The writers of SG1 didn't think too clearly". Pause for hysterical laughter. Change that comment to "the writers of SG1 didn't think." and you'd be nearer the mark.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

I can pretend to be polite, now can't I? :)

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

The Air Force Academy IS an undergraduate institution. So graduating from there in 1989 would give her a B.S. And if it's anything like the Naval Academy or ROTC that I'm familiar with, you graduate with a rank of lieutenant (I'm fuzzy on whether it's 1st or 2nd).

Here's what Codger expects her personnel list to look like, based on the ribbons on her uniform.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v383/ExtraBadPenguin/Star%20Gate%20SG1/?action=view¤t=03-Carter.jpg.

It has her taking three years for a doctorate...which would be a short frame of time, but considering how fast Sam takes up alien tech, I could see her zooming through courses and wowing thesis authors. That's likely the weakness in his argument. But, the alternate would have her being a lieutenant (first or second) or captain for too long. She'd be drummed out of the service because it's promote or leave for career officers. That's why you'll note Capt. Fraiser got promoted a few months after Sam.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

It's second lieutenant. I looked it up.

I find it a lot easier to believe she zipped through her doctorate than that she languished as a junior officer. And good point on Janet getting her promotion soon after Sam.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

And those personnel files of Codger's are great. I love the history for Teal'c, starting from 1915. Hee!

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

Teal'c's is the bestest. :-) He does have a bit of fun with them, but when you ask him why he did such and such...he has this information and the knowledge about the ribbons on the uniform and stuff that backs him up!

[6beforelunch.livejournal.com]

Those personnel files are fantastic. I just saved a bunch of them to my harddrive, they'll definitely come in handy for fic purposes.

If only we had seen Daniel get some of those civilian medals on the show. *sigh*

Is there any way to send feedback to Codger? I'd love to thank him for all the hard work.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

Don't you just love them? Harry's cracks me up too.

He's supposed to be coming on lj here (which is why I deleted an earlier comment). His lj id is extrabadpenguin. I don't know if his email is public.

I think he may be haunting fig's earlier thread on the subject.

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

She presumably spent three to four years gaining her Masters degree and then another three to four years getting her PHD.

I don't know much about military stuff, but I know enough about science grad school to say that no way would Sam have spent that long.

Given her - who she is, her brilliance, her drive, I'd expect her to have taken no longer than 5 years for MS + PhD and I'd easily believe 4 (depending on the school and such). Much less than 4 is pretty much unheard of, and even 4 is tricky and not overly likely.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

Codger figures three and has based it on a real air force general's bio (who did it in two...in astrophysics!) He may have already mentioned it on fig's earlier post. I dunno. Have to get over there.

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

Wow. And people told me I was ridiculously fast to do my Master's in 1.5 years...(as in, "you can't do it that fast! nobody gets a Master's that quickly!" "but, look, see the list of requirements? I've completed them" ".....oh....")

Is there assuming starting with a Master's or starting with a Bachelors? Because, really truly, in the sciences (and I firmly believe Sam would have gone to a Top Tier grad school) starting with a bachelor's that quick is almost impossible - with a lot of dedication and a lot of luck, three is just barely believable.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

I would think they're talking about three years post graduate (i.e. post Bachelor of Science). Heh, as you've seen, it's a real person.

I got a doctorate in three years...okay, it was a professional non-sciencey doctorate that's supposed to take only three-four years. ;-) [/random mutterings]

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

I'm just going to keep reeling. Don't mind me :)

[ultranos-fic.livejournal.com]

Because, really truly, in the sciences (and I firmly believe Sam would have gone to a Top Tier grad school) starting with a bachelor's that quick is almost impossible - with a lot of dedication and a lot of luck, three is just barely believable.

It really, really depends on where you go. I know of one place in particular that you can get a Masters in 1 year, but that's doing some very interesting backflips. (I'm talking Science or Engineering degrees, here.) From that program, getting all of grad school in 3 years (meaning 2 on PhD) is conceivable, but even your peers will tell you you're insane (and that's not even dealing with crazy politics).

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

Oh, 1 year masters are not all that uncommon (though terminal masters in the sciences are more common for 2-3 years). But there are so many hoops for a PhD and so much is luck with getting access to instruments and having experiments work and getting enough papers through the review process and published and getting your thesis written and defended and...it just takes time.

So, yeah, 3 is possible provided you work really really really hard and are magnificently lucky.
(I know when I was applying - in chemistry where you don't bother with masters if you're getting a PhD usually - Northwestern made a big deal that 4.5 years was common there because it was shorter than most schools)
*shrugs*
Sam = SMART

[ultranos-fic.livejournal.com]

Sam = SMART

QED. :)

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Sam = SMART

Hee hee! Problem solved!

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

Oh! Here it is! :-) It's quite an amazing real life bio he's based Sam's academic background from.

http://sg-fignewton.livejournal.com/28663.html?thread=570359#t570359

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

...wow...

I've met some pretty darn brilliant scientists and mathematicians but...wow...

[sg-wonderland.livejournal.com]

Oooh, I've been working on a fic-tag for '1969', a personal favorite for two reasons, Daniel and bell-bottoms. But I digress. I was trying to figure out, definitively, who was younger, Sam or Daniel. Thanks for answering that question for me.

[sg-fignewton.livejournal.com]

Whee! That just gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling. :)

And Daniel and bell-bottoms, hah! Look forward to seeing that fic!